Would you eat this rabbit?

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

ruths — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:50:08 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I guess someone could argue that if you didn't eat it, there would no need to kill them,[/quote]

Yes there would.

[/quote]

I agree with Evelyn here. There would be a need to kill animals to maintain ecosystems. Can someone really argue with that?

[quote user="ruths"]

it really made me think bout our farming and slaughter practices

[/quote]

I would agree that it must be a degree of quality of life given to farm animals, and this degree might not be sufficient for many who, as a consequence, choose to not eat meat. Or in case of vegans, not even animal products.

How would a vegan justify not eating a wild animal?

The reason of us being here, be a darwinist or a creationist reason, would be the same as other species, and it followed the same biological path. We're omnivores by nature, not choice, although we could chose not to eat meat or meat products, we aren't obligated carnivores.

I have friends who don't eat it because they don't like the taste, or can't bear the thought of an animal being killed. But if the animal needed to be killed to sustain the species' continuity, could be justified not doing it?

I'm not after a rant against vegans or vegetarians here, but I would like to better understand their philosophy.

[/quote]

yes- I think that different people have different philosophies tbh

So, mine, at the time was dual. I didn't want to eat another species AND I didn't like what I saw of farm practices and waht I saw in abbaotirs.

So it was easy for me to be a vegan and just not get involved....

But, that was years ago and it was very hard then to be vegan- it's much less hard now.

And, erm, fried egg sandwiches -)))

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:45:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

No, but everybody needs to reduce the number of children they have, so, hopefully, in time our population will drop to a level where we can once again live in harmony with the rest of the ecosystem

Wynne

[/quote]

Well it took longer than expected, but Wynne's law has been evoked.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 17:19:36 GMT

No, but everybody needs to reduce the number of children they have, so, hopefully, in time our population will drop to a level where we can once again live in harmony with the rest of the ecosystem

Wynne

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:58:14 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

guess which one would be top of the list?

[/quote]

Oh yeah! No question about that one! But in the ideal world, you can use your brain to reduce human population and reduce the intensity of farming without having to kill human beings. But one way or another, the fact that we're here, occupying time and space, requires our interaction with the animal kingdom...

Or are you suggesting that vegans shouldn't have children? Real question here!

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:42:04 GMT

Watch it Francisco Once we start talking about the need to cull a species to maintain the ecosystem, guess which one would be top of the list?

Wynne

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:22:44 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] I guess someone could argue that if you didn't eat it, there would no need to kill them,[/quote]

Yes there would.

[/quote]

I agree with Evelyn here. There would be a need to kill animals to maintain ecosystems. Can someone really argue with that?

[quote user="ruths"]

it really made me think bout our farming and slaughter practices

[/quote]

How would a vegan justify not eating a wild animal?

I'm not after a rant against vegans or vegetarians here, but I would like to better understand their philosophy.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

ruths — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:33:15 GMT

I wondered how they could stun it effectively -

as far as the goat was concerned, it was standing next to its peoe one moment, upside down the next and the knife was really sharp so it was losing consciousness ipretty soon after.

iy made me question my process of thinking around eating meat/ not eating meat. At that point I had two arguments- one wAs around specism and one was around management and slaughter.

i don't think seing this changed my mind on a species based on eating of meat, but it really made me think bout our farming and slaughter practices

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Iain Richards — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 20:42:09 GMT

That's the key though isn't it - the best method appropriate to the circumstances.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Martin Atkinson — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 19:57:59 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

I was travelling through Greece in a coach. Over a hedge, I saw a couple of blokes swing a goat up in a tree and slice its throat - it took about 15 seconds. I presume they used every single bit of the animal.

I thought - that's the way to do it

[/quote]On a trip to climb Kilimanjaro to raise money for VETAID, after we'd done the climb we spent a few days in the bush with the Maasai observing and (helping) some of the projects we were raising the money for. In our honour they slaughtered a goat by just this method and cooked it over the camp fire. You can't argue with that method of slaughter in those circumstances it was practical and traditional. I can report the goat was delicious!

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:59:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Tesco actually have good standards for dairy, and pay a good price to named suppliers.

Wood Park, Liverpool University farm are Tesco suppliers.

[/quote]

I see! Well, they could advertise it better!

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:57:48 GMT

Tesco actually have good standards for dairy, and pay a good price to named suppliers.

Wood Park, Liverpool University farm are Tesco suppliers.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 17:49:28 GMT

I've just been to Tesco's, and this sign have been there for ages on the milk aisle. I guess it is bullsh!t. The sign makes no sense whatsoever, of course the farmers are going to ensure that, but that's not Tesco's doing, if anything, they'd be making it harder.

'Our'?

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:10:38 GMT

Very very depressing

Wynne

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:40:01 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]That's incredibly interesting. Does it mean the UK need to produce less cows? Or simply that many farmers need to either give up or give in?[/quote]

There is no doubt that farmers have a hand in causing these problems. Production is up and there is oversupply at UK level. Realistically it is expensive transporting milk so we are very highly self sufficient for liquid milk.

When we look at other dairy products transport is easier (liquid milk is mostly water). Butter, cheese, yoghurt, milk powder are all traded across the world. Milk powder doesn't sound very exciting, but huge amounts are used in manufacturing. It also has a long shelf life so can be bought and stored.

The Irish are looking to nationally double milk production (they are up 27% from last year). Italy and Germany are expected to chuck out a lot more milk now quota is off. I'm not convinced that if the UK dropped production by 25% it would really be noticed at a world level.

I suspect countries will chuck out more milk, prices will fall, and more dairy farmers (worldwide) will go out of business. It will get to a point where market forces dictate the milk price. It will come down to the individual countries efficiency at producing milk. We are in a relatively lucky position as it's lot easier to grow grass in the UK compared to a lot of the rest of the world.

Running more cows spreads fixed costs and is generally more efficient. The other group who can do well are smaller family farms where they own everything and don't have debt to service.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 14:13:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

It's much bigger than us not buying enough yoghurt.

[/quote]

That's incredibly interesting. Does it mean the UK need to produce less cows? Or simply that many farmers need to either give up or give in?

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:07:20 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]when I was a vegan, I was travelling through Greece in a coach. Over a hedge, I saw a couple of blokes swing a goat up in a tree and slice its throat - it took about 15 seconds. I presume they used every single bit of the animal. [/quote]

That reminds me of a mountaineering trek I was on in the high Atlas, Morocco many years ago. It was a long trip, 3 weeks, and after about 2 weeks camping and living on vegetable tajine, unlevened bread and curried chick peas for breakfast, we were given the chance when passing through a Berber village to club together and buy a goat for tea. The thing was quickly purchased, and just as quickly dispatched and exsanguinated ready for tea. We were all served up bits of old bones and tendons to suck on, and never set eyes on the nicer cuts of meat - think we were well and truly scammed - bar stewards !

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Clive Ansell — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:53:25 GMT

I don't have figures to hand, but cycling past a local dairy (Droitwich) on a fairly regular basis it seems there are more French and Belgian tankers delivering milk than there ever used to be.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:53:21 GMT

Francisco - the UK production is up (with fewer farmers and slightly fewer cows)

There is much increased European production (Germany, Italy, Ireland) with the removal of milk quota. The consumption side is more complicated. Dairy products are sold on the world market and China is buying less as they are producing more themselves (and they have large stock of milk powder). Bans of European milk product into Russia has reduced global demand.

It's much bigger than us not buying enough yoghurt.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:47:34 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]poor demand for dairy commodities,[/quote]

Think Russia banned a lot of EU food imports including dairy products so that would have driven EU-wide bulk milk price down I expect.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:35:59 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

If having a pet is a luxury, surely so is eating meat?

[/quote]

Would you agree that some carnivores are a necessity to maintain herbivores numbers at bay David Mills?

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

And hot off the press today;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35326198

[/quote]

It reads: 'The cut to 21.35p reflected a further weakening in the market caused by "very high levels of supply from farms coupled with poor demand for dairy commodities," the firm said.'

Given that (I guess proven) fact that the UK population is in the increase, is it really true that milk production is increasing even further? Less people consuming dairy products?... Some help here please? I don't get it.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:25:58 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Personally I don't agree. It's not a meal without meat (breakfast excepted). I do think that meat is a basic necessity. You don't *need* socks but I don't want people going without them![/quote]

I love meat, but only good meat. I mistakenly bought some cheap pork and chicken recently and it was really just off white amorphous tasteless mush.

Some vegetarian dishes are really nice, and I don't eat meat every day. Certainly don't think it is essential to a good diet, and if pennies are tight non meat eating is cheaper.

As for socks; I often wear sandals, and if I wore socks too the fashion police would be knocking the door down.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 21:13:55 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

But what if farmgate prices were high enougfh so that you could get that housing but be part of a herd of 40, be allowed to graze during the summer ( OK not all farms are zero grazing, but the number are increasing) and not be pushed to produce so much that you're (literally) knackered within very few years?

OK call my wishes utopian, but I don't like compromisisng on standards.

[/quote]

And hot off the press today;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35326198

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:41:40 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Are you alleging that > 50% of 1998 farmers were bad farmers?[/quote]

No, but I believe that there are greater proportion of bad farmers in the group that have given up than the group that haven't.

If you only have 40 cows you really struggle to manage with their individual dietary needs - it's easier managing bigger numbers.

[quote user="David Mills"]Are you saying everyone should be able to afford to eat meat (or, the other way, that meat should be cheap enough for everyone to eat?) If having a pet is a luxury, surely so is eating meat?[/quote]

Personally I don't agree. It's not a meal without meat (breakfast excepted). I do think that meat is a basic necessity. You don't *need* socks but I don't want people going without them!

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

Iain Richards — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 19:46:23 GMT

Wynne, coming out of the EU won't help banning low welfare imports as these are international trade rules. You can only restrict on disease grounds.

RE: Would you eat this rabbit?

David Mills — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 18:27:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]but I don't want hungry kids in 2016 in Britain. [/quote]

This is catastrophising. Are you saying everyone should be able to afford to eat meat (or, the other way, that meat should be cheap enough for everyone to eat?) If having a pet is a luxury, surely so is eating meat? (even the crap like turkey drumsticks and ham slices)