Flood debris risks

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 19:11:15 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]It has been amazing how little self pity there has been around here but a heartwarming community response. [/quote]To be fair as ever it is probably media hype and reporters looking for a sound-bite that distorts how things really are and gives the impression everyone is bitter about the environment secretary not being there with his wellies on single handedly building flood barriers.

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]The Muslim communities have been especially proactive and we even had a group of Palestinian refugees from Manchester turn up yesterday and muck in. It's done more for race relations round here than you could possibly imagine and it's humbling how generous some people can be. [/quote]It does somewhat restore ones faith in human nature after all the bad press these groups have unfairly received.

RE: Flood debris risks

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 17:51:19 GMT

To be fair Martin , I follow your logical reasoning but I wasn't looking for sympathy anyway, just advice from someone who might have some experience of a similar situation and some useful suggestions. The sludge that has been deposited stinks and it's everywhere.

It has been amazing how little self pity there has been around here but a heartwarming community response. We have had volunteers from as far as London turning up to help clean up and incredibly generous donations of cleaning supplies etc, hot food delivered and local tradesmen giving their time for nothing . The Muslim communities have been especially proactive and we even had a group of Palestinian refugees from Manchester turn up yesterday and muck in. It's done more for race relations round here than you could possibly imagine and it's humbling how generous some people can be.

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 02 Jan 2016 11:11:40 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Are you saying, then, that because a place has been flooded in the past - regardless of when - people shouldn't moan or bemoan their luck in these places?[/quote]Pretty well yes. If an aeroplane crashed onto my house taking off from Heathrow I wouldn't complain that its never happened before I'd accept it as a consequence of where I have chosen to live. I said at the outset that I chose not to buy a house that had 'never been flooded in living memory' but because it was near a river it was obvious the chance was there that it might. My friend I mentioned earlier recognised that storms and floods may become more common and raised the risers on his floating pontoons by a metre i.e. he just got and helped himself.

I really don't know what your beef is David, I might sound sanctimonious but I'm not sure where you want me to go with this. It is no-one's fault, shit happens, there's a risk to wherever we choose to live and whatever we choose to do. That doesn't mean that I don't feel great sympathy for those whose lives have been affected, just that for all of more recent history it was the inevitable waiting to happen.

RE: Flood debris risks

David Mills — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:09:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Its the worst flooding you have experienced in living memory but you can bet your bottom dollar that floods would have pre-dated that and building would have recognised it.[/quote]

Why let the facts get in the way of a smug rant?

My parents live a stone's throw from the flooded Hebden Bridge, Sowerby and Mytholmroyd mentioned and whilst their town is flood-free, the local metropolis of Rochdale wasn't, with the town centre under water earlier in the week. Rochdale has just had it's river re-opened after >50 years of it being a mere stream and the place hasn't flooded from before that (we're talking 1910s/20s here). Are you saying, then, that because a place has been flooded in the past - regardless of when - people shouldn't moan or bemoan their luck in these places? You obviously have no idea of the history or the geography of these places to come out with such baloney. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me and quiet a breakdown in a supposedly intelligent person's logic. Let's hope the New Year brings with it a bit of perspective for those "I'm alright Jack"s in West Drayton.

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:21:25 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I found it an interesting attitude to flooding compared to here![/quote]I rest my case Lucy. There is too much of a blame culture in this country expecting someone else to do things for you, anything but get your finger out and help yourself.

The NIMBY's don't help mind you. When the Jubilee River flood relief channel was opened Windsor and Maidenhead no longer got flooded so often but the problem has just passed on downstream to Datchet and Staines. Of course the properties aren't as valuable there so that's OK! Still it makes a very nice recreational area for walking/cycling/kayaking and a sanctuary for birds.

RE: Flood debris risks

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:58:31 GMT

I visited a friend in Hamburg recently, where flash floods are apparently common. We went to visit one of the posh/picturesque areas where all the lovely houses built at the bottom of the hill have metal shutters to bolt over doors and windows when the water rises. And one of the new waterfront areas being developed is being built to be flood resilient (which I think amounts to something like the garage on the ground floor theory, except there is also a network of raised walkways so you can still get in and out of your house when flooded.) I found it an interesting attitude to flooding compared to here!

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:51:27 GMT

As a profession, we should be really proud of veterinary surgeon Eilidh Hawkins for her brave efforts to save sheep in Conwy earlier this month.

It was tragic that so many died, but it would have been even worse if it hadn't been for both the farmer and Eilidh.

Well done

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:05:01 GMT

The issue is that in the North West (well where I am around Preston anyway) it has rained almost every day since late October. The ground is saturated. If the Boxing Day weather had just been bad rain for a day or so, it would have been fine.

My sympathies for you Claire. The only trouble I had was having to take a longer route to the practice when called out because of road closures.

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:26:08 GMT

Q Why is so much maize grown?

A Because it maximises forage production per acre.

Q W hy is it necessary to maximise forage production?

A Because stocking densities have increased

Q Why have stocking densities increased?

A Because after adjusting for inflation, the price of food has steadily fallen over the last half century, so it's the only way farmers can break even

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

ruths — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:01:36 GMT

It realise that this article doesn't apply for hebden bridge but can somebody explain the counter argument to the one set out by George Monbiot?

He talks about the increase in maize production and how it contributes to flooding.

(sorry it's the guardian, I know you might not want to read it -)) oh, and I don't believe thst all farmers are rich -I think that's hyperbole

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/17/farmers-uk-flood-maize-soil-protection

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 08:59:54 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Martin it's a mill town in the Pennines , there are no flood plains or plains of any kind here.[/quote]I am fully aware of the geography Clare, but there is a distinct parallel. Steep river valleys draining moorland are prone to flash flooding. This doesn't just happen in the disadvantaged north it happens for example on Dartmoor and Exmoor. Early settlements would have been built away from the most flood prone areas, expansion of population to service industry which harnessed the natural resources has led to building in unsuitable places. Ditto river flood plains. The earliest farmers knew this and built temporary settlements in the summer which they would abandon to flooding in the winter.

The reasons for this more frequent flooding in recent times may well be climate change but there were other reasons in the past it is not a new phenomenon. If humans want to take advantage of the bounty of nature they must realise that it takes back what it gives.

I have a friend who runs a boat yard in Plymouth. They are hit by storms several times a year. He doesn't belly ache about it and demand the government spend money shoring up the harbour wall or whatever he accepts the damage as the consequence of earning his living where he does. There comes a point at which it is impossible to mitigate every circumstance and we just have to accept what nature throws at us whether its because we choose to live in risky locations or as the consequence of human influenced climate change.

We are reaping what we have sown; made our beds and have to lie in them; there is no such thing as a free lunch - take which one you like they're all the same.

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 08:33:45 GMT

Utlendigur You're right

Clare I wonder how much of the lost woodland went to build houses on flood plains in the south?

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:04:26 GMT

Martin it's a mill town in the Pennines , there are no flood plains or plains of any kind here. The town expanded because people needed work and the work was in the local mills which used the rivers as a source of energy. The Leeds Manchester canal and railways go through so a hundred years ago the town enlarged but there has always been a settlement here because it is where the bridge was and the pack horse trails met here . Two rivers meet in the bottom of the valleys surrounded by moorland and possibly due to a combination of loss of woodland and a perfect storm of waterlogged moorland followed by torrential rain the rivers burst their banks. It has bugger all to do with building on flood plains in this instance. The flooded houses are terraces and cottages over a hundred years old not new houses. Yes there was a similar event in 1909 but this is not a posh area with new housing estates built on flood plains. We are more used to snow at this time of year which melts more slowly and doesn't cause flash flooding. It's nature doing what nature does from time to time

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:13:56 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"] The town has been here since 1500 and it's the worst flooding we have experienced Martin so I think it is more than just a bad choice of building although I agree that it influenced my choice in buying a house half way up a hill , that and on the sunny side of the valley. [/quote]Its the worst flooding you have experienced in living memory but you can bet your bottom dollar that floods would have pre-dated that and building would have recognised it. Windsor has been there for a lot longer, most of the old town is on a hill so never gets flooded but all the big posh houses built in the last century on the flood plain regularly do. At least most of the new housing is being built on stilts with a garage below so even the ground floor is 10 feet off the ground. There may be times when that is not enough but it seems a sensible start and a solution to building on flood plains - so long as you get your car out first.

RE: Flood debris risks

Utlendigur — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:01:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]There's a vast area, north of the Central lowlands of Scotland, which could be built on without too much of an environmental impact[/quote]

Apart from the indescribable environmental impact of trashing the last remaining truly wild areas of the UK. Not to mention the effects of draining the peat to build on it/build infrastructure releasing large amounts of carbon and methane, and reducing its effectiveness in absorbing rain.

"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity" - John Muir

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:43:22 GMT

That 6.8% is of the whole of the UK There's a vast area, north of the Central lowlands of Scotland, which could be built on without too much of an environmental impact - except for the contribution which each house would make towards global warming, and, therefore extreme weather events. The problem is the econoimy of the area wouldn't support the necessary jobs. Add on the fact that in the rest of the country, people generally don't want to live on the tops of mountains, as it's too bleak, then valley land is already uncomfortably over crowded

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:16:09 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The sheer stupidity of politicians is utterly mind-boggling. They're talking about better flood defences, whilst at the same time talking about concreting over even more of the country, to build hundreds of thousands more houses every year. They should tackle the cause of the housing shortage, uncontrolled immigration and reproduction.

[/quote]

The amount of the UK that is built on is surprisingly low, this article is a few years old, but it suggests that only 6.8% of the UK is built on, so building more houses, as long as they're built in sensible places, really shouldn't have a massive impact on flooding:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

RE: Flood debris risks

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 20:35:35 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Can you imagine the consequence if we have another 1976? I'd rather not.[/quote]

Another me?

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:28:34 GMT

Neither Tim Mainland at that time owned Berne House at Prestatyn, and had a branch surgery in Abergele. The surgery wasn't affected but one of my patients drowned - and he was a dear little dog. No one ever mentions the numbers of animals drowned in these dreadful catastrophes

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

Utlendigur — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:35:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Where exactly in North Wales were you? I was working in a branch surgery at Abergele, at the time of the Towyn flood, mainly sea water, but that wasn't particularly clean, due to proximity to the mouth of the Mersey[/quote]

1993 floods were in Llandudno and very localised because it was a massive thunderstorm. Llandudno is pretty much sea-level - at least you were up a slight hill in Abergele Was it Bryn or Gele Vets?

RE: Flood debris risks

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:55:32 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

My sympathies to everyone involved! To answer the OP's question, besides the already mentioned germs, what about oil, petrol, other chemicals in the brew? I certainly wouldn't want my hydrophilic labs to take a bath in it!

[/quote]good point Dagmar , think there is little to be done other than hosing paws and hygiene. It's heartwarming how many people are turning up to help , we've got all the locals pitching in , groups from the mosques in Bradford turning up with curry and essentials. All very heartwarming. The town has been here since 1500 and it's the worst flooding we have experienced Martin so I think it is more than just a bad choice of building although I agree that it influenced my choice in buying a house half way up a hill , that and on the sunny side of the valley.

RE: Flood debris risks

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:12:14 GMT

RE: Flood debris risks

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:45:55 GMT

During 1976 (which I can remember) there was water rationing in some areas, and stand-pipes installed on the streets, so as to further limit water use. The British population then was 54 million. It's now 64 million - and rising rapidly, so water requirements are about 20% greater. Can you imagine the consequence if we have another 1976? I'd rather not.

Wynne

RE: Flood debris risks

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:05:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] The problem is extreme weather is becoming commoner. Don't say you're a climate change denier?[/quote]I'm certainly not but there have been enough extreme weather events in history for settlements to be traditionally built away from floodplains. We have been fortunate to have lived through a relatively long period of a settled climate and been lulled into a false sense of security so aided by the pressure of population expansion people have taken the chance. Extreme weather events will probably become for frequent, however in a couple of years time there will likely be a drought in the south east and those up north will be sitting smugly glad of their proximity to large volumes of water!

RE: Flood debris risks

grumpyoldman — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:42:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Don't say you're a climate change denier? Utlendigur[/quote] No absolutely not, I took the dogs for a walk a few evenings ago and with torch in hand could not help noticing all the insect life buzzing over water in the roadside ditches. The other day my wife was out jogging and was bitten by midges. Its like the beginning of October still, far too warm for the time of year ,very very odd. I can't ever remember such a warm December.