Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:59:02 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

so they have knowingly caused the birth of an animal with a dramatically shorter lifespan than a dog that size should have.

[/quote]

Though by that logic anyone breeding boxers is equally reprehensible.

[/quote]

And by the same logic so is anyone that breeds Pugs, particularly Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, CKCS, Shar pei's Westie's, .......... etc etc. As is an element of the veterinary profession that accepts and condones, and is complicit in such breeding.

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:54:28 GMT

[quote user="Tom Ward"]Though by that logic anyone breeding boxers is equally reprehensible.[/quote]

True. It's a bit worse though - kind of like hip scoring a dog, then ignoring a result that is substantially higher than average and breeding from it anyway.

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Tom Ward — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:18:20 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

so they have knowingly caused the birth of an animal with a dramatically shorter lifespan than a dog that size should have.

[/quote]

Though by that logic anyone breeding boxers is equally reprehensible.

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 08:31:46 GMT

Virginia. Your comments on performance horses make me think of one of my own. Admittedly, genetics has a huge influence on performance success, but it's far from being the only factor - training, rider ability, and the horse's individual likes/dislikes also have a part to pay. If people pay a fortune for a cloned animal, and it doesn't give them success, will they reject it?

The horse I mainly ride is Pannau Poppy, she's a registered Sec D, and is by Glanteifi Boneddwr, and out of Tynged Morning Star. In the 2003 World Equestrian Championships, one of the British team was Pannau Pandora. She was competing in the pony single driving class, and was second after the dressage phase, so was the 2nd best pony in the entire world at carriage dressage. I phoned the Welsh Pony and Cob society, to enquire about her breeding, and discovered that she was also by Glanteifi Boneddwr, and out of Pannau Seren Ddu, who was out of Tynged Morning Star, so Poppy and Pandora are very closely related. I call them 3/4 sisters. Poppy really hates schooling! She loves hacking through the woods, splashing in the stream, galloping on the mountain, but her total boredom and reluctance whilst schooling is obvious. No amount of talent on the part of a trainer would ever get her to shine at dresage, with or without a carriage. She suits me, but what if she'd been bought by someone who thought her close relationship to Pandora would guarantee success at carriage dressage? The problem with clones will be even greater, because of the vastly greater sums of money involved.

One of William Fox-Pitt's eventers has been cloned. Imagine me buying it, thinking I'd be guaranteed to win Badminton? At least, you could all have a good laugh if you turned up on X country day - to see me hitting the deck at the first fence!

Wynne

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:51:36 GMT

A big no : Its a step away from the "Boys from Brazil"

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:32:39 GMT

I voted no, for the reasons Wynne gave (can you do embryo transfer in a bitch without anaethetising her?)

and also agree with Francisco. AFAIK the Kennel Club and Wetherby's would both refuse to register a cloned animal and I wish all studbooks/registries would do the same. I think it has the potential to make "popular sire syndrome" worse. 20 years ago it seemed that every other showjumper in Ireland was by King of Diamonds. Even in the era before mass availability of AI, he managed to produce - according to one article I read - 547 offspring and his stallion sons, thousands of progeny. Ten years later practically everything seemed to be by one of his progeny, or Cavalier or Cruising. Cruising died last year but has two clones who will presumably start covering mares soon - so Cruising can effectively sire hundreds more horses - and if they clone the clones, thousands.

I suppose it's not going to happen in this case and the owners of the dog were just blowing £60,000 on buying a puppy rather than a diamond encrusted wedding cake in the shape of Kim Kardashian's bum, or whatever. So no harm done to the gene pool at large. Except they have cloned a Boxer that was dead at 8 from neoplasia.....unlikely just "bad luck" in a Boxer - so they have knowingly caused the birth of an animal with a dramatically shorter lifespan than a dog that size should have. If human cloning were legal, would you clone someone with an inherited disease that would kill them in their forties?

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 18:15:43 GMT

I voted yes. I deliberately looked at the links, but read none of your replies.

I can't see an issue, if people want it. My experience of embryo transfer in cows is that recipient animals are generally looked after far better than average. So long as these recipient bitches are not chucking out 2 litters per year then I have no issue.

I also don't buy into the 'breeding is irresponsible when there are loads of dogs in pounds'. When we wanted a puppy, we wanted a black cocker spaniel bitch, so that's what we bought. Not some random mongrel. If you have the funds I have no issue.

If it was £1000 I might have my old bitch cloned........

(dolly the sheep died from OPA - nothing to do with cloning)

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Martin Atkinson — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 13:41:03 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

I voted no for the reasons above, but also on a wider level I don't think it's healthy. Death is the natural order of things, too many people can't accept this. Plus I find it morally reprehensible that people will spend upwards of 60k on a boxer when there are many healthier dogs in shelters looking for a home.

[/quote]You took the words out of my mouth. All I can say further is that I would not want these people as clients. I can imagine that nothing you could do could be good enough for them and they would have totally unreasonable expectations, expect special favours and I bet even though they've spent a fortune on the frickin' dog they'd question every penny you charge them. I see the love child of the worst handbag dog owner and the worst breeder. Of course I am the world's greatest cynic!

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:52:36 GMT

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:41:05 GMT

For me, cloning a pet poses the same ethical problem and conundrum as the artificial preservation of pure breeding, but taken to the extreme. If the DNA of the new pet is exactly identical, but the world is eight years older, the newborn is eight years behind in their struggle against the environment.

It is an ethical problem that share similar grounds than those with supremacist ideas in humans, however the argument poses the conundrum of disease fighting itself, which in turn, would make any species weaker.

I voted no, but beyond what is necessary for the continuation of science development. There isn't really a need to have exactly the same pet again. And to be honest, having the same pet again remains impossible because DNA doesn't by itself define an individual; its experiences through life, which we can't clone, play a very large part in that definition.

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:40:52 GMT

Three reasons for voting no. Firstly the welfare of the surrogate bitch.

Secondly, the experience of Dolly the sheep was that aging is accelerated in cloned animals.

Thirdly, people who would want to clone their pets want the old pet back - exactly as it used to be. They will have forgotten what it was like as a puppy, and, anyway, identical twins (naturally occurring clones) often have markedly different likes and dislikes

Wynne

RE: Is cloning pets morally acceptable?

Liz w — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 08:31:45 GMT

i voted no purely due to the requirement for a surrogate bitch. Jumping to conclusions somewhat, I can't imagine that these wouldhave a particularly idyllic life.

I understand the urge to do it under some circumstances - our last dog was a true mongrel and a fantastic dog, and we couldn't find anything like him when we were ready for our next dog. Still wouldn't want to do it though because it's not the same dog.

Love the Red Dwarf episode when Rimmer clones himself.