SPVS salary survey

RE: SPVS salary survey

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 10:58:12 GMT

We all have to die - eventually, but the premature death of a much loved animal will still cause considerable grief.

Wynne

RE: SPVS salary survey

Anthony Todd — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 10:25:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This is the problem with most people worrying about death, it is a perfectly normal phenomenon[/quote]

Not the best explanation when a routine castration dies.

RE: SPVS salary survey

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:38:25 GMT

[quote user="Liz white"]

what's the worst thing that could happen?"

I replied " well, she could get colic and die,

[/quote]This is the problem with most people worrying about death, it is a perfectly normal phenomenon, be it mine, my children's or my pets. Get over it and move on. The worst thing that could happen is you mortgage your house, spend your life's savings, sell your children into sexual slavery but still go bankrupt and become homeless slowly starving on the streets and the frickin' horse still died!

That must be worth a red star!

RE: SPVS salary survey

Liz w — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:13:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I certainly wouldn't clone it afterwards - for reasons I've already made clear in the cloning thread, but I'm certainly guilty of immediately thinking of the worst of all possible differentials, whenever one of my own animals is ill.

Wynne

[/quote]This reminds me of when I lived at home and our pony got into the feed bin. My mum, trying to calm me down asked "well, what's the worst thing that could happen?"

I replied " well, she could get colic and die, or get laminitis and be shot."

I'm a really panicker when it's my own pets/kids too.

RE: SPVS salary survey

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:59:08 GMT

Wynne

RE: SPVS salary survey

grumpyoldman — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:47:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I don't panic even if my children get ill so the cats are screwed![/quote]

Ok, I should have added with sensible pragmatism, and not like some anthropomorphic unreasonable looney tune that wants it cloning afterwards .

RE: SPVS salary survey

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:26:46 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Since I always panic, and think the worst with my own beloved animals, then if I treated everyone's animals like my own, the bill to eliminate incredibly obscure conditions would be stratospheric

[/quote]I don't panic even if my children get ill so the cats are screwed!

RE: SPVS salary survey

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:10:23 GMT

Since I always panic, and think the worst with my own beloved animals, then if I treated everyone's animals like my own, the bill to eliminate incredibly obscure conditions would be stratospheric

Wynne

RE: SPVS salary survey

Martin Atkinson — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 22:45:21 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]You want them to treat other peoples pets like their own[/quote]Funny that is our motto, at least: "We will treat your pets as if they were our own".

RE: SPVS salary survey

grumpyoldman — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 15:18:50 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The difference is a free consultation from the practice owner is charity. A free consultation from an employee is theft.[/quote]

Well, its a view. I do not think its deliberate ,more that clients with financial limits will try and turn their problems into your problem, and inexperienced less streetwise people are likely to let them.

RE: SPVS salary survey

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:54:57 GMT

Grumpyoldman. The difference is a free consultation from the practice owner is charity. A free consultation from an employee is theft.

Wynne

RE: SPVS salary survey

Anthony Todd — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 13:34:12 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]You want them to treat other peoples pets like their own [/quote]

We loaded and measured things that were good practice like chipping, worming, flea control, dentals etc at a higher percentage than C/S etc which were driven by the quoted price rather than the vets' initiative.

RE: SPVS salary survey

grumpyoldman — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:46:28 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]That one seems to have closed down a little while ago, quite possibly at the time the asteroid struck![/quote]

Its important to keep an eye on the numbers games. I do it with 3 month moving averages , over 3 years, its easy to get the numbers from SAGE with corresponding VAT returns , looking at turnover, wages etc. But I make a point of not looking at individual performance numbers, particularly with new recent graduates . You want them to treat other peoples pets like their own , which means actively discouraging loading bills to meet targets . The problem with being a bit too hands off is that occasionally one decides to start their own fan club by not charging anyone properly so I do look at the number of FOC consults everyone does each month, the reception staff record them if the vet forgets. As long as I am the biggest culprit I have to bite my lip .

RE: SPVS salary survey

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 09:23:18 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Jurassic School?[/quote]Maybe but it could also be the school of trust, respect and fair play. That one seems to have closed down a little while ago, quite possibly at the time the asteroid struck!

RE: SPVS salary survey

J G Wray — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 08:20:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]BUT - there is also the commodity value of a vet. [/quote]

Ouch.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I realise as a practice owner that I should earn more money than I would as an employee, but I have taken a large financial risk to get into that position. I believe it is right and fair for me to take the hit in a quiet month, not the staff.[/quote]

I find this all a bit tangled. Xmas is nearly here. Here's a really good read for you

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-E-Myth-Veterinarian-Michael-Gerber/dp/1618350331

RE: SPVS salary survey

J G Wray — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 08:12:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]We thought it might spur the low vets up but it made no difference at all. The vets who didn't push worming or flea control never did, ones who loved dentals always did....[/quote]

This is what we've come across over the years, but it's changing because, we believe, we've changed our approach. We run small seminars with the vets on what the purpose of increasing profit is and demonstrate the opportunity for investment in training staff and kit that it gives. That means providing a better service and a more fulfilling role, which and this is our point, as a consequence can bring greater reward ( greater fulfilment plus financial reward). Then we go to where we see the opportunities to practice better medicine lie and ask those who do more work in these areas to explain why they do it and what they do to process the work, even down to the form of words they use.

Now, we have friends who use bonus systems in their practices and I've seen their figures and they also get changes in behaviours, but their bonus system is not "if.... then", but " now that you have done this....here is" and they also run these seminars.

Both systems appear to work so long as you spend time articulating why.

RE: SPVS salary survey

Anthony Todd — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:44:20 GMT

"So when one of your surgeons books an easy lump removal with fluids, pre-anaesthetic bloods and all the fancy stuff to make it beyond the £500 mark but! the client can't make it the day this surgeon is in surgery, who is making the money?"

True, but it evens out and we found that the vet who booked it usually made sure it was done by him or her.....

RE: SPVS salary survey

Anthony Todd — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:41:34 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Just as a matter of interest do either of you do what we do in terms of giving feedback to staff in the way we do? Do you "Dare to Share"?[/quote]

Yes we did for about 10 years. The ratios between vets were amazing and usually consistent. If a vet "hated dentals" then he/she did very few per 100 contacts and consistently so etc. etc.

We did it because some branches were quieter than others so it wasn't fair to measure anything unless you related it to number of contacts where things like dentals could be advised or ignored.

We thought it might spur the low vets up but it made no difference at all. The vets who didn't push worming or flea control never did, ones who loved dentals always did....

RE: SPVS salary survey

J G Wray — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:20:31 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I guess I come from the old school where to discuss practice income with employees was not considered the done thing.

[/quote]

Jurassic School?

RE: SPVS salary survey

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 21:30:20 GMT

Personally I think this works two ways. I agree that a vet should be paid more if they do more work. Their pay should reflect their performance. If you have 2 assistants with the same experience and one does +25% more turnover I agree it should be rewarded.

BUT - there is also the commodity value of a vet. Different vets in different practices are given different degrees of freedom in terms of their work, ways of working and booking. I've been in practices where people book ops in for themselves and others where you drop people into free slots for the operating vet. Some practices are very busy, some quiet. Some practices the workload can be quite seasonal. Should a new discount corporate opening down the road mean the assistant earns less? Taking on other roles (training staff, mentoring etc) will drop turnover but mean they are doing other things.

We'd start on SPVS average. Discuss annually based on practice and individual's performance. I think that is quite fair. I realise as a practice owner that I should earn more money than I would as an employee, but I have taken a large financial risk to get into that position. I believe it is right and fair for me to take the hit in a quiet month, not the staff.

I also worry about the ethical slant paying based on work done - it's very easy to hike up a bill with little or no benefit to the animal (add 10 mins surgical time, stick on a drip, keep overnight, pre op bloods, unnecessary buster collar etc etc etc).

RE: SPVS salary survey

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:50:22 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

"Dare to Share" board

[/quote]

So when one of your surgeons books an easy lump removal with fluids, pre-anaesthetic bloods and all the fancy stuff to make it beyond the £500 mark but! the client can't make it the day this surgeon is in surgery, who is making the money?

RE: SPVS salary survey

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:49:18 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Just as a matter of interest do either of you do what we do in terms of giving feedback to staff in the way we do? Do you "Dare to Share"?[/quote]As I'm sole charge it doesn't really apply to me but I don't share my practice finances with nurses other that to give them generous bonus if we've done better than expected. They are paid above the going rate so they are happy regardless. I guess I come from the old school where to discuss practice income with employees was not considered the done thing.

RE: SPVS salary survey

J G Wray — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:15:24 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Or rather profitability - there's a big difference in generating turnover through activities with large costs (lab fees and drug sales) than say consultations and operating time.[/quote]

The profitability is not necessarily within the control of an employee and is kind of taken care of by using a multiple of turnover, it may just be a different multiple.

[quote user="robloxley"]I'd hope other contributions to the practice - time spent mentoring staff, clinical coaches, admin etc - might be factored in?[/quote]

What does your contract say?

RE: SPVS salary survey

Rob Loxley — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:10:58 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]It's his turnover. not that of the practice that matters ![/quote]

Or rather profitability - there's a big difference in generating turnover through activities with large costs (lab fees and drug sales) than say consultations and operating time.

I'd hope other contributions to the practice - time spent mentoring staff, clinical coaches, admin etc - might be factored in?

RE: SPVS salary survey

J G Wray — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:05:20 GMT

[quote user="Emily Rainbow"]Turns out other half gets a monthly print out of his income vs others etc so will use your calculation JG Wray and see what ballpark figure we get.[/quote]

Small comment - income is generally meant to be in-come, i.e. monies received. Turnover is more akin to amounts billed. In equine practice these are notoriously a way apart. If you are charging and are expected to ask for silver then your position is in your own hands. If the practice has taken the process of asking for payment away from you then turnover is the way to go.

[quote user="Emily Rainbow"]As for myself I'm clueless, I have no idea what myself or the others bring in! Will ask and see as would be quite interesting to see if I'm being useful.[/quote]

OK. This experience can be chastening. PLease be prepared for each of three possible outcomes:

1. Your multiple is 3 or less. This can feel v personal and it shouldn't. Do your best to de-personalise this measure and analyse what part of the process of your work leads to this multiple. Then try and choose how you might work differently. This is a strong behaviour and full of self-determination.

2. Your multiple is 4-5. Well done. Try and analyse the process which allows you to express yourself at this level of performance and hold it as your stabdard.

3. Your multiple is >5. Let your managers and employers know and give them an opportunity to express how impressed they are. Enjoy the conversation.

I'm surprised your husband is given colleagues' figures. If asked we offer an pro rata average for comparison, but this is rarely helpful.