On call

RE: On call

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:05:06 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]From the practice's point of view if a contract of employment were in place and you were incapacitated in respect of your duties by drink /drugs then the best you could hope for from the practice would be suspension or dismissal.[/quote]

Hang on, I didn't say it was OK to go and get hammered while on call! I just said, what if Anon said to the bosses, "I'm going to a party next Saturday night and will be unavailable for LA on call" and they said "OK" and a call came in that was improperly dealt with or not dealt with at all that night, and the RCVS asked who was meant to be on call, and the bosses said "Anon was. Anon always does it and didn't tell us otherwise." They have already lied, sorry I meant remembered a conversation differently to Anon, in one instance already.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Taking. the. piss.[/quote]

Angry

[/quote]

Nope, I just think it's a bit off for Anon's bosses to expect Anon to do 1:1 on call, without any renumeration, forever when Anon was just helping them out of a temporary hole in the first place and then get arsey, sorry I meant intractable, when Anon asks for an end to this arrangement. Yes everyone is free to stay or go, there's no gun to Anon's head, etc etc....but don't you think the bosses have been taking advantage of Anon just a teeny bit over the past year?

RE: On call

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:30:58 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have no written contract[/quote]

I think that, by law, you are meant to have one and it's the employer's responsibility to provide it and keep it updated. (any legal eagles out there?)

[/quote]

The employer has to provide a written statement of terms and conditions.

There does not have to be a written contract.

Unless things have changed recently.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Once mutual respect goes, enthusiasm follows. [/quote]

Quite.

Anon, it would seem you have a large animal following in the area.

Why not leave, move next door and run your own large animal practice?

RE: On call

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:46:07 GMT

Once mutual respect goes, enthusiasm follows. Even if it settles this time, it is unlikely that things will go back to a happy balance.

Even if there is an agreement in the short term, I suspect the relationship will have broken down. As with most broken relationships, it is generally better to move on!!

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:26:06 GMT

[quote user="Sophie Aylett"]

Ultimately it is not your responsibility to ensure the provision of out of hours services [/quote]

Oh yes it is!

RE: On call

Sophie Aylett — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:08:26 GMT

Working without a contract = leave

Unable to discuss issues rationally with the bosses = leave

You are working to unreasonable terms, although it seems like you have only tried to help the practice and the farm clients. Ultimately it is not your responsibility to ensure the provision of out of hours services although it seems like you are being made to bear the responsibility of the whole farm animal division, without any of the rewards.

Overall there are many farm jobs out there (here in the Midlands!) so find someone who appreciates and respects you.

RE: On call

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:30:10 GMT

I think if you did take them yo an employment tribunal, the minute the tribunal heard you didn't have a contract, they'd immediately find in your favour

Wynne

RE: On call

J G Wray — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 07:26:29 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"][quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have no written contract[/quote][/quote]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]I think that, by law, you are meant to have one and it's the employer's responsibility to provide it and keep it updated. (any legal eagles out there?)[/quote]

Pretty much

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]They are taking the piss[/quote]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Taking. the. piss.[/quote]

Angry

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]enjoying delicious glass or three that night[/quote]

I see

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]what happens when a complaint comes in if the call doesn't get attended[/quote]

I don't know where this angry diversion into drink driving and on call came from but here's the thing, we are all from the moment we get our MRCVS regulated as individuals. Whatever we do, whatever decisions we make are our responsibility, not our colleagues.

From the practice's point of view if a contract of employment were in place and you were incapacitated in respect of your duties by drink /drugs then the best you could hope for from the practice would be suspension or dismissal.

RE: On call

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:49:29 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have no written contract[/quote]

I think that, by law, you are meant to have one and it's the employer's responsibility to provide it and keep it updated. (any legal eagles out there?)

[quote user="An On MRCVS"](20hrs per week on paper, approx. 25-30 in reality with extra demands) [/quote]

They are taking the piss or you are letting yourself be trodden on. Everyone pretty much expects to end up doing a wee bit more than they are paid for, but not consistently 25-50% more.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have been informally on call every weekend and the weekdays I don't work for over a year now[/quote] [quote user="An On MRCVS"]The bosses have said a flat no to any benefits, are stating that I have agreed to do all on call for free [/quote]

Taking. the. piss.

Good luck if you decide to negotiate, but I'd be going shopping for a new job if I were you.

I would also be somewhat concerned about the current OOH situation from a legal RCVS/VDS type point of view. Where have large animal calls gone while you have been away/over the drink drive limit in the past year? I suppose responsibility should lie with the practice owner, but if an LA emergency rings when you are unavailable - even if you've told the bosses in advance that you will be away/enjoying delicious glass or three that night - what happens when a complaint comes in if the call doesn't get attended to? Do they throw you under the bus any say "Anon was on call that night" Your word against theirs in that case. They already have form for pretty much saying that you agreed to do all the LA on call, free, forever. What would they say about the arrangement for one particular night under the pressure of a complaint?

RE: On call

An On MRCVS — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:00:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I would bail out asap +/- sue for constructive dismissal[/quote]

Very tempting - I am quite grumpy about the situation and would like to be vengeful but feel it would harm my reputation long-term so am probably just going to have to suck it up and walk away.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]My first thought is that if you are only working 4-5 hours a day it is not unreasonable that you do more than your fair share of out of hours provided you are paid for being on call. But it depends on the terms of your contract. If you have agreed to this in the first place then it makes it more difficult but I can't see that any contract that demands you work every night 24/7 and weekend 52/52 with or without pay would stand up in an industrial tribunal, it must be illegal surely?[/quote]

I have no written contract. The only thing I have is one from 5yrs ago when I was full time and this has no mention of the OOH.

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]No, you've been on call - no informally about it. I'm sorry, but if you have been doing this for over a year and you are not a partner or practice owner, then you are a mug.[/quote]

It crept in insidiously - I started off being on hand for any difficult situations other vets couldn't manage and this was gradually changed to dealing with all calls. It isn't massively frequent (called out once every 2-3 weekends and occasional advice calls) and yes I agree I shouldn't have got sucked in but I raised the situation at the start and said this needed addressing yet nothing happened and I felt obliged to provide cover for my clients rather than leave them in the lurch.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]the problem I see is that Anon is not offering anything besides their veterinary abilities, at least in the post. But I guess that even if he/she did, it would be likely to be very secondary to their veterinary role and unlikely to make gains in the intended ground.[/quote]

I do offer a fair bit more to the practice, certainly above and beyond the other vets but i don't want to give specifics in case I inadvertently identify the practice. I understand being part time may not be ideal for them but they were happy at the time to offer me the hours I do.

[quote user="Liz white"]It's a one sided story so far.[/quote]

It is and I appreciate I can't probably see their side of things clearly but as far as I am aware there is no attempt to resolve this other than me, or myself and the other vets, to remain on call for free.

Having suggested they provide some incentive to get other vets involved and give us the visit fee plus professional fees (minus employer NI/VAT), they are now offering 50% of the call out fee to the attending vet but this still means 50% of call out fee, all drugs/lab fees/other professional fees go to them despite this being a voluntary arrangement and at no cost to the practice at all (bar drugs which will be marked up anyway). I see it is a compromise but still seems a little tight as once tax and petrol come out of it we would get approx £35 for a callout that usually takes a couple of hours when travel time is factored in and nothing for being on call and not called out yet they profit for no effort.

Speaking to recruitment companies this afternoon!

Thanks all for input, I do feel better with the general consensus being that this is not reasonable and I am not getting wound up over nothing.

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:44:46 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

I had a negotiating position because I was offering something needed to enhance the practice and ultimately the veterinary care provided.

[/quote]

I see your point now - the problem I see is that Anon is not offering anything besides their veterinary abilities, at least in the post. But I guess that even if he/she did, it would be likely to be very secondary to their veterinary role and unlikely to make gains in the intended ground.

RE: On call

J G Wray — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:40:29 GMT

feeling

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] The contract is not redacted by the employee, it is written for those that look after the interests of the employer. [Would you accept a candidate that bring their own contract to your practice?][/quote]

Well, I dunno how you do your recruiting, but we create a job profile which builds an application form which contains the job description and the interview process is also a negotiation on terms and conditions. So no, a candidate who brought their own contract would not get past the first phase, but the final employment contract would not necessarily be the starting contract. This is old news. Back in 1990 when I joined my current practice as an employee there was a protracted negotiation, because I wanted to nail down whether a partnership was possible and my final contract was a very different thing to the original. In turn I agreed certain performance targets in the first two years, which revolved around reducing debt and computerising the practice. I had a negotiating position because I was offering something needed to enhance the practice and ultimately the veterinary care provided. Seeking out enhanced employment prospects, by bringing something else to the table seems unfashionable these days.

Did you bring anything beyond your veterinary capacity to your job e.g. marketing knowledge, computer skills, management experience for instance?

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:02:35 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Do you really believe there is "slavery", contracted working without reward, in this profession?

[/quote]

You can call it a lot of things, not necessarily slavery. But an employment contract is not somehow and equidistant set of rules that offers equal benefits to both parts. The contract is not redacted by the employee, it is written for those that look after the interests of the employer. [Would you accept a candidate that bring their own contract to your practice?]

Then, and once those interests are secured in regards of being law abiding and making them seductive enough for employees, the company will offer this contract to those candidates considered good enough to fulfill the position.

I'm not against it, I think it is fair enough and it is the world where we live today. But it is not unreasonable to think that negotiation might be futile if the requests are too uphill for the employer. That's why I'm an advocate to have these relationships less intrusive in employees private lives, and that's why I would be keen to go somewhere else in the somehow 'imcomplete' story from Anon.

RE: On call

J G Wray — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:50:55 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]but in the case of the OP where negotiation starts from a point of someone believing I should work for nothing and that my professionalism is worth zero it is going to be an uphill and likely fruitless plod. life is far too short, I think I would take my professional skill and expertise somewhere it is respected and valued sooner rather than later[/quote]

Do you really believe there is "slavery", contracted working without reward, in this profession? There are examples of contracted work for very little exploiting a tax loophole and employment contract law, called internship ( a stipend and limited time employed) which is tolerated by those who take it up for some nebulous and far from guaranteed reward, but even that's not working for nothing in our World in 2015. Anon has not explained what the quid pro quo of being part time and employed on this basis is. We are not in possession of all the circumstances and therefore it is likely that there's a degree of complexity rather than a two tone view here, ergo a possibility of negotiation.

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:01:26 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]You won't disagree that it sounds just like David Cameron and the EU referendum [/quote]

I'm prepared to bet that when it's personal, then the nuances, the things that are unreported in accounts like Anon's give these situations altogether more colour and, on a positive note, possibility for the outwardly monochrome.

[/quote]

I agree, the problem is, like you said, we only have one side of the story and it is very unlikely we will hear the other one so we can only comment on what we've got.

In reference to the EU referendum where I have hopes for a 'Staying In' (though I guess that won't happen ) I just find that most countries are fully backing rules where the UK seems alone (or at least reportedly). It is IMHO more likely that the UK will leave altogether than a change to the relationship unilaterally against 26 countries that don't approve.

[quote]

It's not so long ago you were making a point about how sometimes it's not so easy to leave jobs because of ties and commitments beyond the issue in practice.

[/quote]

... and that's exactly why I believe Anon, despite of the many arguments against staying in the current practice, is still asking for our opinion.

Again, we've only got what he/she has told us.

RE: On call

Braden Collins — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:49:42 GMT

If (and it is always an if when we only have one side of the story) it is that bad and the boss won't negotiate and you can't keep doing what you're doing, then you don't ahve a lot of choice other than leave.

It may be that the boss feels trapped by the need for OOH cover that he can't figure out another way to provide, had a knee jerk reaction to a request for less on call, or there is something else going on in the background that made them unwilling/unable to negotiate.

It will be worth scheduling a meeting with the boss when you can sit down and discuss things with them properly and calmly. Make sure you head to the meeting with some solutions, and see how it goes.

RE: On call

Clive Ansell — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:42:04 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Regardless of what is or is not in any contract, how does one negotiate with someone that has the opinion or the attitude that it is acceptable to work for nothing?[/quote]

Calmly, having marshalled arguments and with a clear sense of what outcome would be acceptable. Documenting contact and response wouldn't be a bad idea, because it takes the emotional sting out of the exercise, makes it a process, more objective and less about self and how "self" got into this situation.

[/quote]

A sensible answer, but in the case of the OP where negotiation starts from a point of someone believing I should work for nothing and that my professionalism is worth zero it is going to be an uphill and likely fruitless plod. life is far too short, I think I would take my professional skill and expertise somewhere it is respected and valued sooner rather than later.

RE: On call

J G Wray — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:41:29 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]You won't disagree that it sounds just like David Cameron and the EU referendum [/quote]

Cameron's negotiations with the EU on in-work welfare payments and immigration policy look a little scaled up, hyperbolic in fact, compared with something as mundane as an in-work issue for a part time veterinary surgeon. For those who live their lives in monochrome a yes/no answer for someone else's problem looks simple. However, I'm prepared to bet that when it's personal, then the nuances, the things that are unreported in accounts like Anon's give these situations altogether more colour and, on a positive note, possibility for the outwardly monochrome.

It's not so long ago you were making a point about how sometimes it's not so easy to leave jobs because of ties and commitments beyond the issue in practice.

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:20:38 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Eh? How about checking the protection the employee has from their contract and seeing if there's an opportunity to negotiate?

[/quote]

You won't disagree that it sounds just like David Cameron and the EU referendum

RE: On call

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:14:02 GMT

[quote]

I am a part time employee (20hrs per week on paper, approx. 25-30 in reality with extra demands) . I have been informally on call every weekend

[/quote]

I'm sorry but I think you've been a full timer.

[quote]I have raised this as a concern with bosses [/quote]

[quote]The bosses have said a flat no to any benefits, are stating that I have agreed to do all on call for free and am now reneging on the agreement [/quote]

That to me means that 'negotiation' has already taken place

[quote]Their answer is that we just stop the large animal work, not sure if they are bluffing or happy to take the moderate financial hit.[/quote]

It sounds like they really want to stop farm work, but they don't want to pay you to leave. They want you to make that decision yourself.

[quote]Any thoughts on how to compromise on this or whether walking away is the right/wrong thing to do?

[/quote]

Yes, find a better job.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I am looking for some kick up the arse!

[/quote]

Exactly, move on!

RE: On call

J G Wray — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:08 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Regardless of what is or is not in any contract, how does one negotiate with someone that has the opinion or the attitude that it is acceptable to work for nothing?[/quote]

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I would bail out asap +/- sue for constructive dismissal. [/quote]

So, if you perceive a wrong now you'd walk away and conside legal action? You've mellowed.

There is a saying the "a solution requires a higher level of thinking than went into the problem that created it". It's not a popular notion because it is harder than a reflex.

RE: On call

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:23:24 GMT

Also LOVE farm vets willing to work part time and OOH. Makes the practice very flexible.

RE: On call

Elisabeth Knappett — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:21:37 GMT

Sympathies from me as well, a truly difficult position to be in, but don't feel pressured into staying in a job where the stress outweighs the pleasure. And seconding Catriona's comment, if you fancy a move to the EAST coast of Scotland.....just let me know!

RE: On call

Catriona MacIntyre — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:21 GMT

This sounds like a very uncomfortable position to be in Anon, and I truly sympathise.

I think it would be worth a careful look at your contract, and tried to approach discussion once more but yes, I think it may be time to move on. It doesn't sound like the practice really wants it's large animal work much.

On the other hand... if you fancy a move to the West Coast of Scotland...... there are currently SEVERAL jobs going, all of them with better on call terms!

RE: On call

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:35:55 GMT

It sounds like you've tried to negotiate but had no success. It is probably time to decide what hours and on call you are prepared to do, for what salary, and give them your decision - they can take it or leave it. If they want to keep you, they'll talk. If they want rid of you, or the LA side of the business, they won't. But at least you'll have your decision!!

Obviously you may then have to leave. Make sure you look into what options you have - all LA work carries some on-call and I don't know how much PT work is out there, so ensure you're not going to end up in a worse situation that the one you're currently in.

RE: On call

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:32:54 GMT

"I have been informally on call every weekend and the weekdays I don't work for over a year now for the farm clients"

No, you've been on call - no informally about it. I'm sorry, but if you have been doing this for over a year and you are not a partner or practice owner, then you are a mug.