Refusing euthanasia

RE: Refusing euthanasia

grumpyoldman — Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:57:23 GMT

We tend to get 2 periods each year when aggression directed at owners and their families reaches epidemic proportions ,its also when elderly infirm dogs with severe halitosis become incontinent. Those are December and June , that is because they are having visitors and going on holiday . The problem is refusing will miss the odd genuinely dangerous animal, and in the past when I have refused the dog has been dumped on the lay by across the road ,and gets hit by a car.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:53:07 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]...if we refuse and it is rehomed and then bites someone... we are culpable.[/quote]I don't see why unless you hide the fact that it has bitten and therefore may do again, new owner takes it at their own risk.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:23:35 GMT

Had one this week. Cat who apparently is urinating all over the house. Last saw a vet 2 years ago, owner now can't cope with the soiling. Lives in a house with 3 dogs 'but isn't stressed', also had hip OA. Given loxicom and kalmaid and sent on it's way.

Another cat, brought in for PTS due to soiling in the house and aggression. Loveliest, soppiest cat ever. Once again, had been doing it for almost 2 years with no veterinary attention. Owner refused any workup or treatment. This one was rehomed, and was as soppy as hell - poor thing was just stressed.

Multiple dogs, but those were passed to other colleagues. It's very hard to refuse to PTS a dog that has been called aggressive - if we refuse and it is rehomed and then bites someone... we are culpable.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:18:48 GMT

Didn't you see the smiley? Just wishfull thinking

Wynne

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Bob Russell — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:12:49 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

What would people who refuse to PTS a healthy animal do with a "pitt type" dog (i.e. a Staffie by any other name, just happens to be homeless) that had been seen by the police DLO?

[/quote]

Yes I have refused. It was stated in someones will that the pets were to be PTS as there was no way they would cope without the owner. Told the responsible new carers this was blatant bullshit.

To the best of my knowledge they remained together with this same carer for the rest of their natural lives!

If the said type terrier tried to have a go at me, the needle would come out. If it tried to lick my face and wagged its tail and gave no indication of a temperament issue, they would have to go elsewhere. I don't euthanase just because an animal looks a certain type.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:10:43 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] It would be so-o-o tempting to say "Wait while I get the injection", and then trip with the uncapped needle facing the client[/quote]Trouble is you'd either be spending a very long time in prison of accidentally inject yourself and in case of the former may wish you had!

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:51:39 GMT

That's the sort who make me sorry that Immobilon LA is no longer available. It would be so-o-o tempting to say "Wait while I get the injection", and then trip with the uncapped needle facing the client

Wynne

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:11:53 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"] I'm lucky in that I've only been asked to do one racing greyhound, [/quote]I used to have a greyhound trainer who brought in quite a few to be PTS. I didn't like it but the alternative was that he may use a less humane method so I complied. I charged him standard fee which he'd always complain about but when he tried to make me reduce the fee 'or I'll do it myself' enough was enough I refused. It is on his conscience not mine. There are a couple of greyhound trainer friendly vets near here so I suspect he took them there and the bodies were disposed of illegally.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:42:10 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

It looked healthy and more or less sound so I naively asked , "oh, what's wrong with it?" There was a short, embarrassed silence, then the boss (who happened to be in the room to get something) took the dog's lead and nodded the owner/trainer on their way. Boss held the dog, I euthed it. Not another word was spoken.

[/quote]

Am I the only one who thinks this story is utterly sad? I know this doesn't help this discussion, I really should shut up but I can't.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:41:41 GMT

Have to say I think if requested and owner adamant then I have on rare occasions agreed. no one knows what is happening in someone else's life and we should be slow to pass judgement. Quite a few old people have requested PTS of their aging animals rather than think of them being passed from pillar to post. I feel my role as a vet is to prevent suffering in my patients and since I am not a vegetarian I accept painless administration of death in other species.

just before the summer holidays our local pub on top of the moors regularly has dogs appearing on the door step who have been booted out of cars in the middle of no where . Some humans are just selfish and ignorant , always have been , always will be.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:16:55 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]We don't have to help, legally or professionally, and can point blank refuse (death isn't a welfare issue, but a premature death of a healthy animal is not in the animal's best interests) but what does the client do then? I know some of it is emotional blackmail but equally we've had drowned dogs brought in and mashed greyhounds off the motorway in the middle of nowhere. Sometimes no option is palatable and without a crystal ball it's difficult. Better a nice death than an uncertain future in some circumstances.[/quote]

I normally don't like the , "If I don't do it, someone else will do it worse argument" but think it holds true in this case. I'm lucky in that I've only been asked to do one racing greyhound, when I was locuming. It looked healthy and more or less sound so I naively asked , "oh, what's wrong with it?" There was a short, embarrassed silence, then the boss (who happened to be in the room to get something) took the dog's lead and nodded the owner/trainer on their way. Boss held the dog, I euthed it. Not another word was spoken.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:34:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Would be helpful if you could send me a pm telling me what operating system / browser you are using. I can't figure out why it would affect you and only you, though![/quote]Well it seems its sorted now, last post was normal and AFAIR it was the first time its happened. No need for a PM, I'm using Windows 8.1 and Google Chrome.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:47:23 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] I can't figure out why it would affect you and only you, though![/quote]

You'd expect me to be the first to make suggestions ......

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:10:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Arlo why has the text in this post gone all weird[/quote]

Funnily enough, Martin Atkinson I was going to ask you the same question!

I've noticed that when I look in the code of your replies, it contains stuff that nobody else's replies contain. It's benign stuff (instead of html code denoting paragraphs, it puts your stuff in tags called 'divs' with an attribute that mucks up formatting on yours and subsequent posts.

Would be helpful if you could send me a pm telling me what operating system / browser you are using. I can't figure out why it would affect you and only you, though!

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:29:20 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

What would people who refuse to PTS a healthy animal do with a "pitt type" dog (i.e. a Staffie by any other name, just happens to be homeless) that had been seen by the police DLO?

[/quote]Well I did have to euthanase one (its in my book!) and it was a lovely dog. Sadly the law dictates it has to be done whether I do it or someone else notwithstanding the interpretation of what breed it is.

And would have no qualms over euthanasing a potentially aggressive of any breed.

I did refuse to euthanase an aggressive cat once and re-homed it. It repaid me by sinking its teeth into my leg when sat on my lap. Lets just say that we came to an understanding as to who was alpha male in our relationship and he turned into the most gentle and intelligent cat I've ever owned (he's in my book as well - copies still available for Christmas, someone on this forum has just ordered 2)!

PS Arlo why has the text in this post gone all weird, the spacing and gaps between paragraphs are normal before I submit it?

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Matt Hilary — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:52:33 GMT

Never refused point-blank but have talked owners out of euthanasia on a few occasions. Main worries are the alternative for the animal and possibilities of escalation in aggression cases.

I don't see euthanasia as a welfare 'problem' but that may be an age difference.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:13:26 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Stray cat at my last practice - treated for ATE for 7 days, did really well, then the boss decided should be PTS when no owner had come forward. I refused. I wouldn't have argued if it had been euthanased after 24hrs....but to treat it for a week to the point that it was well, and then PTS!!!! I took Gus home....he lived with me for 6 months before having another ATE, when I euthanased.[/quote]This is a bit different Gillian in that you refused a request from an employer rather than a client. And I can see his(her) point of view which ultimately was vindicated if it had been re-homed. My nurses are very adept at collecting 'stray' kittens from Joe Public and refusing to let the local cat rescue re-home them after they have nurtured them. I sometimes have to put my foot down (but not until after I've taken 2 home and they've had one or two each)!! The surgery would be knee deep in cats if we kept them as surgery pets which is what they want.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:00:00 GMT

I have refused, but every time I've got the owner to sign a rehoming consent form, and charged the same as a PTS but billled as rehoming fee If (as usually happens) the animal is handed to a local rehoming centre, the rehoming fee is then given to them - or knocked off their bill.

When I have killed an animal, who's neither ill nor savage - because I think the chances of rehoming poor, and I don't want it dumped - it is charged not as euthanasia, but as contract killing, and is twice the euthanasia fee.

Incidentally, I have grave objections to the word euthanasia being used for killing anything that isn't terminally ill. I refuse to lie (and calling a contract killing euthanasia is a lie) just to make a horrible human feel better about their own bad behaviour.

Wynne

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:56:27 GMT

Like Gillian, I can remember most of the ones I've refused to pts, and if the owner was to take them away I would be much less inclined to refuse, as I, like others, would be worried about the end result.

A 1 year old German sh Pointer came in and the owner claimed he had bitten someone. It was easily apparent this was a lovely bouncy dog, who had not a bad bone in his body, but once we had a long conversation it became apparent he was destroying the house as he wasn't getting enough stimulation. She admitted she had made up the biting story as it sounded better. I persuaded her to sign him over and he was rehomed via Pointer rescue.

We have rehomed multiple cats who have been signed over to us over the years.

And a a call to a long standing pug breeder client who was going into a hospice. We were to pts a 16 year old dog (which was fair enough, he wasn't too well) and a 6 year old bitch. When I got there she was running around wagging her tail. She had horrendous airway issues and bad teeth, eyes etc so she felt rehoming would be hard. I persuaded her to let me take her, which she was happy with, and she lived with us for another 5 happy albeit noisy years. She was a very good friend to my teenage son during some difficult times at school.

There is never an easy answer, but I do feel in some cases pts is kinder than passing to multiple homes.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:13:38 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]"ATE"[/quote]

sorry -aortic thromboembolism.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

David Mills — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:46:40 GMT

Dog Legislation Officer, copper who decides who's pitt and who ain't just by looking.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:43:11 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Far better this, than buck the responsibility to another vet, force the owner to take matters into their own hands or worse still, allow the dogs to further damage folk.[/quote]

+1 ; and the behaviouralists can reason and minister all they like, but I never wanted to take a chance with anyone's face or mine.

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Anthony Todd — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:40:08 GMT

WTF is "DLO" and P.S. "ATE"

[amazing the number of vets who owned staffies or "pit type dogs" back in the day]

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:15:19 GMT

In the past 2 weeks, I've euthanased an American Bulldog and a Golden Retriever. Both were young fit dogs that had attacked their owners. Did I like doing it? no, I hate it. However I could give them a reasonably dignified end with ketamine/medetomidine and an I/V injection, that's what I do on a daily basis. Far better this, than buck the responsibility to another vet, force the owner to take matters into their own hands or worse still, allow the dogs to further damage folk.

Neil

RE: Refusing euthanasia

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:13:44 GMT

I can tell you the specifics of the animals where I have refused to euthanase, if you want them:

Cat, 6yo, male owner distraught after wife died - couldn't cope with life, wanted the cat PTS. I refused, but after discussion the man agreed to rehoming. That was 10 years ago and that cat is currently upstairs asleep in bed with my son.....

Labrador, 2 years old, brought in by a lady with (presumed) mental illness - she was convinced it had cancer and needed euthanasing. I could find nothing wrong with it. I refused to PTS but also refused to let the lady take the dog with her. She agreed (eventually) to leave the dog with us and, as it had a microchip, I contacted the previous owner (without permission, I guess....) who, it turned out, had let the current owner have the dog 'for company' while she wasn't well!!! She didn't want to have the dog PTS but didn't want it back either. After much discussion over a few days (while the dog resided with us) we finally got permission to rehome the dog. 'Trixie' now lives in a lovely home with another labrador.

Stray cat at my last practice - treated for ATE for 7 days, did really well, then the boss decided should be PTS when no owner had come forward. I refused. I wouldn't have argued if it had been euthanased after 24hrs....but to treat it for a week to the point that it was well, and then PTS!!!! I took Gus home....he lived with me for 6 months before having another ATE, when I euthanased.

I have PTSd many animals where their welfare has been best served by being dead, even where they have been neither terminally ill nor proven aggressive. If the owner simply won't change their mind, then I'd rather PTS than it end up in a bag in the canal. But I reserve the right to refuse if my conscience dictates.