Syrian bombing

RE: Syrian bombing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 09:01:23 GMT

Now coalition forces are also bombing Syrian government troops. Before we know where we are, there'll be a war between the American led coalition (of which we are now a part) and Russia. Where will it end? I'm genuinely scared we're sleepwalking into World War 111.

Ae to how to reduce the risk of domestic terrorism - well, if I said what needed doing, the left wingers would lynch me.

Wynne

RE: Syrian bombing

Nhombokisheni — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 21:08:37 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Oh my! Isn't Radical Christianity also Christianity?

[/quote]

Agreed 100%. Look at the old testament.....Abraham was ready to slaughter his son Isaac because he believed.....stoning was accepted so was religious abuse, murder etc if one disobeyed the laws of Moses. Just because we now select to do what is socially correct does not mean that bad stuff no longer exists. Depending on your preferred interpretation....the bible has enough material to create a very nasty world.

My point is if this religion is bad let everyone who is angry with ISIL denounce the religion......not just parts of it!!!!! Religion is steeped in history....and middle east history is amazingly violent, controlling and tribal..........you cannot separate a people's history and religion!!!!!

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 20:39:09 GMT

Any really believe that with their backward ideas and medieval actions they would ever be able to create an empire and maintain their social needs within any length of reasonable time? They will fall sooner or later, I just hope that it occurs before any sort of further expansion rather than after they continue to expoliate. Best way? Starve them from their needs, materially by killing trade and ideologically, by avoiding the creation of martyrdom.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

"Radical Islam" is Islam!!!!

[/quote]

Oh my! Isn't Radical Christianity also Christianity?

RE: Syrian bombing

Nhombokisheni — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 20:26:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

The problem is you leave it until that happens without weakening ISIL there will be no Syria left to have a solution in.

Radical Islam dictates that all non believers are infidels and given free reign the extremists won't stop until the Caliphate rules again. Is that what you want because it may be if you stand round and do nothing?

[/quote]

Looking at the destruction now and imagining the picture after the bombing, I doubt there will be a Syria left anyway. What we need to ask is what happened to give ISIL the advantage......FOREIGN INTERFERENCE .....that created a vacuum.

I doubt these guys would have come to our shores without having something to blame us for....WE PROVIDED THAT REASON!!!! Everyday there is talk of radicalisation......however to borrow from the Holy book....the seed that falls on "good soil" prospers, bears fruit........anyone seen the appalling deprivation in the area where the French "terrorists" lived, or the poverty in the Belgian towns implicated.......here in the UK councils are creating immigrant ghettos in the deprived council estates. The kids in these areas are essentially "trapped" and fertile ground for anything that offers hope. The social gradients in Europe are nurturing "Good soil" for perverts like ISIL. How about ploughing some of these war funds into bettering these steep social gradients.

"Radical Islam" is Islam!!!!! The war between religions is older than I care to research...the bible has some very disturbing laws during the Times of Moses which tells me those who subscribe to these religions have of recent opted to be selective in what laws to observe....unfortunately just like Pharisees, there are those in the Islamic world who feel all converts should observe the requirements to the letter!!!!! We are infidels because we are falling in their affairs......I maintain that we leave these guys alone....as history shows, they always manage to sort themselves out........

Just something crossed my mind.....now that we have floods of people from there settling here....could we find ourselves victims of something similar to Hitler's Aryan strategy......sponsored ISIL children running for number 10!!!!!

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:29:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

He also said that if we're worried about the bombs killing some innocent citizens don't because they pale into insignificance with the number ISIL are wantonly slaughtering.

[/quote]

Really? Would you rate that being 'considerate'?

[quote]

. Is that what you want because it may be if you stand round and do nothing?

[/quote]

The question shouldn't be about bombing or nothing. It is about what are the long term of actions now and whether these actions are or not counter-productive.

RE: Syrian bombing

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:11:54 GMT

I was not sure if bombing ISIL targets would achieve anything but what convinced me it would was when I heard an interview with a Briton who had gone to fight with the Kurdish Peshmerga, and he said that the bombing in Iraq did make a difference as it allowed his ground troops to gain an advantage. He also said that if we're worried about the bombs killing some innocent citizens don't because they pale into insignificance with the number ISIL are wantonly slaughtering.

ISIL and similar jihadist groups are determined to enforce their medieval ideology on the rest of the world whether we stop bombing and walk away from the middle east now or not. In the end it is better to do something rather than nothing. Agreed that it will do nothing more than limit their advances for now and until there is a political solution in Syria with unification of forces who can fight against ISIL the problem won't be solved. The problem is you leave it until that happens without weakening ISIL there will be no Syria left to have a solution in.

And as Nhombokisheni says this is just the same ideology that has been the root of conflict in that region since records began. Stop it in one place and it will start somewhere else. Don't forget the Moors ruled parts of southern Europe until only a few hundred years ago when more powerful western/Christian forces threw them out. Radical Islam dictates that all non believers are infidels and given free reign the extremists won't stop until the Caliphate rules again. Is that what you want because it may be if you stand round and do nothing?

RE: Syrian bombing

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 15:16:49 GMT

A dangerous idiot! Apparently people were throwing bottles at him!

I just like the off the cuff comment by someone off camera.

Dare I say it? Very London, very 'British'!

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 15:01:23 GMT

Just imagine if gun control here was the same as in the US...

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

He aint no Muslim bruv!

[/quote]

'Course he ain't - He's just another idiot.

RE: Syrian bombing

Bob Russell — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 14:47:50 GMT

Was going to post this under 'just to make you smile' but thought better about it! Not found the video without a bit of US advertising, but about half way through the video is worth watching. I watched the loon who stabbed those on the underground as he hits the ground having been tasered. Brilliant! Would have fired a few more at him for the fun of it!

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/you-aint-no-muslim-bruv-londoners-mock-underground-attacker/

He aint no Muslim bruv!

RE: Syrian bombing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 07 Dec 2015 08:37:15 GMT

Gillian Bombing will increase not decrease the risk of terrorist attacks - look at what happened in the tube station. Read Nhombokisheni's post - he actually has experienced civil war, so knows what he's talking about.

Wynne

RE: Syrian bombing

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 22:09:37 GMT

ISIL is driven by an ideology, the same ideology that has been the root of conflict in that region since records began.....you can bomb the place all you want, but bombs won't obliterate the ideology. Names of groups will change....but same ideology.

The coalition have been bombing these terrorists for how many months now....was it Einstein who said repeating the same thing over and over in the hope it will give you a different result is the definition of..insanity?

When the war started in my country, no one really wanted to go and fight, but when people you knew were suddenly shot, homesteads destroyed, the effect was droves of youths voluntarily coming forward to join the freedom fighters. Each time a bombing mission is celebrated, somewhere in Europe a family from that region will be mourning their loss of a loved one. ISIL has infact been granted a free licence to bring the war to our streets......the big difference is that they are ready to die.....ARE WE????? To us one life lost is a big issue, to them a thousand "martyrs" born is a celebration.

This Labour deputy leader should keep his trap shut.....what democracy was he talking about regarding the vote....democracy would have been Cameron divulging all the spy information ha had AND allowing every member to vote freely.....instead you had Labour "topping up" the Tories. As for the "ground" soldiers........reminds me of Libya..now those rebel forces are fighting for the spoils.

No, bombing is not only a bad move, but most importantly ha been proven to be useless, ineffective.......and frankly cf some of the treatments under c discussion!!!!!!!!! Revenge is poisonous....to the avenger!!!

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:04:14 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

how would you then deal with the escalation in terrorist attacks that would inevitably follow?

[/quote]

Do you think that those terrorist attacks will increase if the UK stays out? Since they're actually happening from home-grown people as justification of involvement, I'd say they're likely to be reduced. Note I'm not an advocate for doing nothing - I just believe that sending people with handguns to kill wasps is a bit ridiculous...

Edit: When Vladimir walked into Crimea, there was some discussion about economic sanctions. Being Russia the largest country in the planet with nuclear potential, I don't see what's the problem with studying who negotiates with ISIS and impose embargoes accordingly. For starters.

RE: Syrian bombing

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:00:01 GMT

There seem to be some on here who feel that if we stay out of Syria, and stop fighting ISIS, then that would be the best bet for us as a country. Just wondering - how would you then deal with the escalation in terrorist attacks that would inevitably follow?

(As someone who lives near a large city that has been bombed by terrorists in the past, I know that most people round here are very concerned about going to large events and shopping centres. The Manchester Christmas Markets are significantly quieter than previous years.)

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:22:31 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] No, we wanted revenge straight away, we wanted blood and we wanted it now.[/quote]

Who is the "we" you are paraphrasing?

[/quote]

'We' can be the majority of the elected members of the UK that represent views and approve legislation for its population, if you like, so by extension all residents of the UK. Whether you and I voted for them or not (or in my case can or can't vote for them) is irrelevant (the Scots are massively against it and they're having it anyway), their choices lead to consequences not only for the people of Syria, all of us who live here and many of the countries directly or indirectly involved in the conflict.

Happier if I say 'the UK parliament' instead of 'we'? Is that distinction either important or necessary? I wasn't talking about you specifically... Is the thread about semantics?

RE: Syrian bombing

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:38:19 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] No, we wanted revenge straight away, we wanted blood and we wanted it now.[/quote]

Who is the "we" you are paraphrasing?

RE: Syrian bombing

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:35:00 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] Jeremy Corbyn on this one[/quote]

I have heard what he is against, but what is he for?

[/quote]

there are plenty of alternatives other than giving weak minded self-radicalised individuals another reason to strike. But have we given any time to explore them? No, we wanted revenge straight away, we wanted blood and we wanted it now. To the point of using the same oratory that they use. We should show them and the world why we are better and evolved rather than going down the same route. The most powerful leader of IS could say to their warriors : 'Are you with me? If not, you're a .......sympasither'

Best intervention IMO that of Paul Flynn. A shame it couldnt be articulated as well as that of Hilary Benn.

http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/my_weblog/2015/12/vote-on-syria.html

RE: Syrian bombing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 14:52:18 GMT

Bankrupting the country with even more excessive taxation - but that doesn't alter the fact that he's right on this issue Grumpyoldman When (not if) it becomes boots on the ground, I'd suggest the Queen takes matters into her own hands, and introduces compulsory conscription - of all MPs who voted yes

Wynne

RE: Syrian bombing

Malcolm Ness — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 13:59:26 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] Jeremy Corbyn on this one[/quote]

I have heard what he is against, but what is he for?

RE: Syrian bombing

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 13:32:39 GMT

Despite all the austerity cuts and Osborne's pledge to pay off the national debt, there's always money for a war. I'm with Jeremy Corbyn on this one.

RE: Syrian bombing

grumpyoldman — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:58:36 GMT

It does strike me that many of these people are not happy unless they have someone with a flag and uniform to shoot at . This will end up with boots on the ground ,it always does ,which means someones son, hopefully not mine returning in a black bag. Iraq taught us that sweeping conquering military movements in these places are easily achieved with 200-300 thousand troops air superiority and 3 armoured brigades . Then you need to put up with three times as many men stationed there and regular casualites for several years to suppress the resultant insurgency. While you try and develop some kind of democracy. As soon as you leave they start killing each other again.

All things considered not worth my or anyone else sons life .

RE: Syrian bombing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 12:34:05 GMT

However much effect these bombings will have, given the cost of each bomb, the total expense to the taxpayer will mount rapidly - and Cameron has said (after the vote) that it will be a long haul!

The effect on potential terrorists already in this country, and others who will come in under the guise of asylum seekers will be exactly like poking a wasps nest with a stick!

As for the thousand years, it's been going on a lot lot longer than that. Read your Old Testament, and you'll find the (As)syrians and Isrealites have been at war for many thousands of years.

Wynne

RE: Syrian bombing

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 11:35:59 GMT

I agree with Alex Salmon on this one having heard him on radio 4 this morning. If the world cut of the internet access/shut down websites, stopped money transfers through oil sales then you will weaken significantly.

Should we bomb? Well it's 2 jets isn't it, compare that to all the others, it's a show of solidarity that looks good on the surface and I cannot believe they are the first jets to try to bomb those oil fields. However it sends a message to our allies.

It's a glib arguement, but watch Kingdom of Heaven, the sword and Sandles epic with Orlando Bloom The Middle East has been in turmoil for a thousand years, we're just in another phase. Depressing

Neil

RE: Syrian bombing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 10:43:39 GMT

Agree with you on the UN. If the UN voted to overthrow either Assad or ISIL, then it would be legitimate to follow orders, and be part of a truly international force. As it is,I don't thinkit either lawful, or moral to interfere.

Keeping immigrants from that region out is necessary for our own protection. Interfering in their internalaffairs simply isn't our business.

Wynne

RE: Syrian bombing

Richard Carter — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 10:36:37 GMT

My take on this is to throw the whole thing to the UN - at the moment Assad is the recognised, legitimate leader of Syria. If the world votes that he shouldn't be then we can perhaps behave the way we are but we are dealing with a hydra - the more heads you cut off the more grow back in their place. It is easy to be a martyr at a certain age and if all your culture, family and beliefs are pushing you to act in what others may view as terrorism but which in your mind is a noble and righteous cause, then the west or moderation or sanity is not going to win. And if you think fundamental extremism only exists in the Middle East, are any of you watching the USA politics and some of the statements they have made??

The trick to killing hydra was to poison it completely - so seize the off shore funds, arrest/ get rid off people involved in arranging and moving the funding and arms around (more 007 than bombs on schools by accident), cut off communications, oil, electricity and other requirements, stop international and local movement of known activists, don't give them publicity - starve the movement of the oxygen it needs - which is the exact opposite of what we are doing now.

These people must be in a state of paranoia not knowing who to trust - get some disinformation going - break up the unity. Come down hard on any people who have attended training camps in middle east rather than just letting them back into the community when they get back to Europe.

at the end of the day, while they are small, agile and committed, they don't have the resources of satellites, phone interception etc to tease the fabric apart and STOP GIVING THEM AN IDENTIFIABLE ENEMY ie us when we fly our planes over obviously supporting the other side (the evil, corrupt west).

The Americans arrested Capone for tax dodging, not murder so more thinking and subtle activity, less flag waving please.