ketamine and sched 2's

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 17:12:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I could not save a copy of the form on my computer so we had to photocopy it for our records. Could not tell the real one from the copy [/quote]There is no apparent difference so I've found it easier to photocopy the original sent through the post rather than downloading and printing, however I have made a copy on computer.

I don't suppose we have to print both sides do we with all the instructions on the back?

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 13:55:30 GMT

There must be a lot of 'bent' vets out there to allow the volumes of ketamine that have been available for the last few years! Not that many bottles get stolen from practices.

The new form to order controlled drugs does not strike me as being any more secure than the original forms provided by the wholesalers. I could not save a copy of the form on my computer so we had to photocopy it for our records. Could not tell the real one from the copy except for the large COPY we stamped over it!!!

It cannot be that difficult to set up an electronic system for vets, doctors and pharmacists to complete that linked directly to the suppliers and authorities.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:06:34 GMT

Interesting re manufacturer of ketamine. I was told the majority came from legitimate supply by a policeman! Also confirmed by Wikipedia:

Due to the complexity of its chemical synthesis, ketamine supplies for recreation use must be diverted from licit medical sources, though there have been reports of industrial-scale illicit ketamine manufacture in China and India.^[10]

It's not a 'meth lab' type process as far as I can see (although I may be on a government list now.....).

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:57:57 GMT

The BBC link confirms that ketamine can be manufactured with relative ease. I understood most of the misused ketamine is in powder form so cannot work out the link with veterinary ketamine.

The Chinese and Russian authorities are clearly very frightened of the impact of ketamine misuse and production is on an industrial scale. They have been pushing for a world wide ban via the UN.

Daft idea as this is a really useful drug both for vets but poorer countries where an inexpensive, injectable anaesthetic is really needed. Has an important place in terminal care in the UK.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

bob lehner — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 16:16:55 GMT

Yes - destruction of Sch 2 CDs needs to be witnessed (Police Officer, vmd medicines inspector, PSS assessor - or an independent vet from another practice). You can record that it has been destroyed (witness to sign) and adjust the balance accordingly in your register.

Other CDs (Sch3/4 etc) for disposal must be made 'irrecoverable' - but don't need to be witnessed.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Rob Loxley — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:25:43 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]Then make up as per the vmd CD Register Template[/quote]

Is it a good idea to have all CD usage/dispensing witnessed and recorded in the CD book? Certainly if you are disposing/destroying CDs isn't there a requirement for this to be witnessed and record of this in the book, which this template omits?

There is also some more guidance at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/controlled-drugs-veterinary-medicines

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

bob lehner — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 11:43:45 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

Dechra provide dull brown books, Animalcare some lovely bright pink ones...

[/quote]

Both good - or you can buy one from the National Pharmacy Association (but expensive).

Or make your own - get a decent sized hard back bound book from your stationer. Then make up as per the vmd CD Register Template:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/445209/_357330-v1-Example_CD_register_pages.pdf

Separate double page spread for each product, which is identified at the top of the page. Number the pages (best practice - not a legal requirement). Allow 0.05 mls per injection as wastage. Keep a running balance and do a visual audit weekly. Have a delegated reliable person in charge of the CD register!

Job done!

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Joyce Whitehead — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 19:08:23 GMT

Dechra provide dull brown books, Animalcare some lovely bright pink ones...

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

patrick murphy — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:49:03 GMT

free books!!! where where?

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Ashley Rubens — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 23:11:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Yes. Just needs to be treated in the same way as methadone etc. We have been entering it in the CD book like this for quite some time![/quote]Do you enter every nanolitre used for anaesthetising a hamster or just full bottles in and out? If you're logging it to check abuse the angel's share is more than the hamster gets so there will always be a significant discrepancy of the amount actually used!

[/quote]

Just add 0.05ml to every dose - that's the volume of a needle hub - and as it's printed in the front of the free CD books Dechra were giving out we started doing it, PSS inspector didn't have a problem and nice that theres rarely any discrepancy when we get the end of a bottle of something!

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Braden Collins — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 22:33:04 GMT

We already treat ketamine the same as an drug of addiction. Needs to be in a wall of floor mounted safe with minimum 10mm steel walls and doors, internal hinges, etc plus recorded in and out for each patient. There is an allowance of 0.2ml per dose of acceptable loss to account for what's in the needle hub. It's all easy to do once you get used to it.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Alastair Welch — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 21:34:46 GMT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0643x65

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 21:21:26 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]instead of the government making a really determined effort to eradicate the criminals[/quote]

The 'problem' is that ALL the illegal ketamine taken recreationally disappears from the legitimate medical (and dare I say it veterinary) supply chain. You can't make it in your drug den.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:01:27 GMT

Since I'm in the Practice Standards Scheme, then I've had to record it already. What annoys me is yet more regulations for the law-abiding, instead of the government making a really determined effort to eradicate the criminals

Wynne

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:54:57 GMT

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Tom Ward — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:44:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The alternative is to lose it completely which is what the Chinese and Russians would like to happen.

[/quote]

are drug control schedules internationally set then? I had assumed they were UK only categories.

RE: ketamine and sched 2's

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:18:01 GMT

Yes. Just needs to be treated in the same way as methadone etc. We have been entering it in the CD book like this for quite some time!

The alternative is to lose it completely which is what the Chinese and Russians would like to happen. They have pushed for it to become schedule 1 which would make it illegal to possess. All other sch 1 drugs are considered to have no medical benefit so clearly not the place for ketamine.