Well done "Independent"

RE: Well done "Independent"

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 03 Feb 2016 10:03:24 GMT

The video is certainly unpleasant but definitely not the norm, at least not in my experience out there. I believe that the Ministry of Primary Industries has launched an investigation into the slaughterhouse for multiple breaches of animal welfare laws. There is, unfortunately a surplus of calves produced in the NZ dairy system (as in most) and not all the calves, particularly bull calves are able to be reared for beef. Bobby calves are slaughtered for veal - personally I would rather the meat is at least used than they are just shot on farm and go to waste (I understand this is a problem for Jersey farmers here due to the public perception of veal and therefore a lack of demand). Calves should be left with water and shelter, and transported to the closest slaughterhouse, and gentle handling should go without saying. When we found out bobby calves from our area were being transported to a slaughterhouse greater than four hours drive away we complained and things were changed.

I wonder sometimes whether working in the slaughter industry requires you to become hardened to the death of animals, and this naturally extends into a sort of callousness towards the suffering of live animals? Perhaps not, maybe just people working hard for poor pay.

I don't think there is anything innately better or worse about an extensive system (though instinctively I prefer the idea of cows being outside in the 'fresh air') - like others have said, it depends more on whether they are run well or poorly. You see more or less common health problems in each - fewer/ no LDAs in a pasture based system, plenty of mastitis but less likely to be E. coli/ sick cows, lameness an issue due to thin soles/ walking a long distance (bruising and white line most common), probably more downer cows due to less opportunity to manage diet around transition, fewer calf pneumonia cases as they are outside from a very young age, but much slower growth due to energy lost keeping warm. As in a housed system, good management prevents or mitigates a lot of these, poor management predisposes to them.

I tend to think it's not really suitable for the UK. The payment system is different (NZ payment is based on fat and protein and discounted for volume as so much is processed into powder the companies do not wish to pay to transport water they will then evaporate away!) and suits high per cow production, whereas a successful extensive enterprise is based on high /hectare production. So many farms are now hemmed in be development or rely on parcels of grazing land elsewhere that running a herd outdoors 365 days a year and getting them in for milking is impractical. Genetics of the UK herd, like others have said, aren't really suitable for keeping cows outdoors on grass. Grass is an ok feed for cows but not for milk production.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 02 Feb 2016 08:23:24 GMT

It's so so sad/

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

dave reid — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 21:19:26 GMT

Started Watching the video michael but couldn't get to the end. by referring to the New Zealand method, I was not inferring a superiority, just noting a change in practices around here as dairy farmers are under so much pressure at the moment. The extensive nature of NZ practice sounds great in principle, but I have clients here reporting dystocic cows left to die and downer cows left in slurry on farms his son has visited over there. Welfare becomes an issue if things get too extensive, I hope our farmers behave better than the video though. Like I said good and bad farmers everywhere.

I suspect the latest round of lowering of milk prices is going to be the final nail for a number of our dairy herds. for the smaller guys there is no investment to ensure cell counts stay down. there are still plenty of good stockmen and farmers committed to welfare out there. I think local markets probably offer the best chance for their survival unless a radical management plan and investmeant can occur. The farm I worked on many moons ago had his own dairy on the side and sold bottled milk direct to at least 3 different delivery rounds, he phoned the local bakeries to get the cream sold locally and took it there himself. Like Ginny suggested, I think the only way a 60 to 100 cow herd is going to have a chance is to cut out the middle men and find a local market - easier back on the edge of Manchester than in rural Wales?

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 10:25:29 GMT

Since the Animal Welfare Act enshrines the "Five Freedoms" in law, then there's grounds for prosecution of owners of zero grazing systems, because they don't allow the cows to exhibit normal behaviour. Please don't quote economics at me - the answer is a massive increase in prices. Other countries can change trade agreements, so why can't we?

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 09:53:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] See why I consider the modern world has deteriorated[/quote]

No, because it has got so much better.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:22:41 GMT

See why I consider the modern world has deteriorated

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:12:16 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Grazed grass is the wrong food for the modern, high yielding dairy cow. It is better for their welfare to live indoors and have their feed brought to them.[/quote]

Sad but true. Puts me in mind of the breed specific dog food you can get in Pets at Home. The one with a picture of a pug on the front has *specially designed kibble that's easier for your pug to eat*!!! It's a sad day when dogs can't eat dog food effectively and modern turbo charged dairy cows can't walk a few hundred yards down a lane, eat grass and walk back again without collapsing in a ketotic heap. But that's the way it is and pug kibble and zero grazing are probably best for their welfare. The animals need redesigned - but the market is there for pugs and cheap liquid milk. If you're going for butterfat then little Kiwi cows might work but they are driven hard too. I bet they don't spend much time frolicking in the buttercups. If you raise prices by 500% it'll be all the same- profit is profit no matter what the scale.

I reckon the only way you could make money out of an old fashioned system in the modern world would be by buying a herd of pedigree Ayrshires or dairy shorthorns, making some delicious cheese, and paying someone very good at web design to market it at £25/kg as "Wynne's handcrafted artisan vintage reserve ash rolled cavern aged traditional Cwm Bach". But you can't make the average person want to pay for it, any more than you can make people want to pay 5x more for their jeans so that the people making them wherever in the world (and even selling them here) can have better salaries and working conditions.

It's quite sad - I grew up on a dairy farm and we all used to love watching the joyous event Dave describes when they got let out for the first time in spring, bucking and galloping like young horses. We had British Friesians and a Hereford bull, which back then made for a lovely suckler replacement or a reasonably decent beef bullock (and we had a fair few lame cows, probably a higher TBC and SCC than would be saleable now, and likely a ridiculous number of empty days/cow - didn't count anything like that) We'd be bankrupt in about 5 minutes if we still had a cattle enterprise and ran it like that. We have a few sheep left (pretty much hobby level); I fix pugs in the city 60 miles away, and my brother and sister work behind desks in the same city. Although my sister's second job involves marketing sheep flock management software to bona fide farmers with pedigree flocks and go-faster commercial flocks.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:41:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If you think its great in NZ - watch the video at this link[/quote]

I did and it was appalling. It was the practice when I was in dairy practice for the "bobby" calves to be taken from their mothers pretty well at birth, placed in an open pen at the gate and taken away, I knew not where.

Animal welfare has fortunately advanced since then in some places, not others.....

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:17:48 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] but their genetics with the management of the BEST herds in this country 40 years ago would be great.[/quote]

Compared to what we can do now - absolute tosh.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Solve the problem of calving by starting out with a Jersey bull on a Frisian cow, and always a Jersey on 1st calvers - and don't calve before 2 and 1/2[/quote]

Trying not to be rude - but really this is stupid, stupid advice. There is good research to show that calving heifers at 22-24 months is more profitable (ugh!), but also that they are healthier and LAST LONGER IN THE HERD.

http://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/news/dairyleader-articles/november-2014/fertility-workshop/#.Vq5OYlLbCK8

Crossbreeding is not a solution. Genomics are. If you've not looked at them - do. We can breed healthy, long living cows with excellent protein and fat yields. We can breed them with good fertility and resistance to high cell counts. Hell we can now breed then for increased resistance to TB.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Animal welfare should always be the primary aim.[/quote]

To promote good animal welfare you make the best breeding decisions with the best information we have available. That's Holstein on Holstein (ideally sexed for replacements). You calve them at 22-24 months old.

The olden days weren't all that great - things have moved on and gotten so much better. With the huge increase in supply the milk price is only going 1 way. Drink more milk, have custard with your tea, have some cheese for podding. All you can realistically do is consume more dairy products.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 18:08:37 GMT

I don't - but their genetics with the management of the BEST herds in this country 40 years ago would be great. NZ have absolutely the same problem as this country - milk prices far too low to fund minimum standards of welfare.

Solve the problem of calving by starting out with a Jersey bull on a Frisian cow, and always a Jersey on 1st calvers - and don't calve before 2 and 1/2 - yes, I know that wouldn't be economical with current milk prices - but it could be if farm-gate prices rose enough.

Animal welfare should always be the primary aim.

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:46:15 GMT

If you think its great in NZ - watch the video at this link

(not nice viewing)

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/290865/shocking-video-of-dairy-industry-emerges

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:44:28 GMT

I don't have exact figures to hand, but the more milk you get per cow, the lower the carbon footprint. This is where the environmentalists get a dilemma - bigger farms are also produce less CO2 per litre of milk.

Butterfat is less relevant when the majority of milk in this country goes into the liquid market.

People who knock Holstein cows have not kept up with them - either in management or genetics. This will get better, faster with the advances in genomics.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:33:12 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]No useless, shitty little cows. They don't live longer. They have a much greater carbon footprint per litre of milk produced. Far less efficient.[/quote]

Please elaborate, and include butterfat percentage......

Actually I think in NZ farmers were paid on butterfat percentage times volume of milk???

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:21:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Breeding alternative Freisian and Jersey - long living hardy cows, as opposed to milking machines

Wynne

[/quote][quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Breeding alternative Freisian and Jersey - long living hardy cows, as opposed to milking machines

Wynne

[/quote][quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Breeding alternative Freisian and Jersey - long living hardy cows, as opposed to milking machines

Wynne[/quote]

No useless, shitty little cows. They don't live longer. They have a much greater carbon footprint per litre of milk produced. Far less efficient.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 15:51:12 GMT

Yes, they were just starting and Friesian over a jersey cow gave enormous calves! And paring friesian front feet gave me a chronic sacro-iliac joint....

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:59:45 GMT

Breeding alternative Freisian and Jersey - long living hardy cows, as opposed to milking machines

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 12:07:42 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Kiwi genetics[/quote]

What are "Kiwi genetics"?

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:24:04 GMT

These high yielding cows are as much genetic monstrosities as Belgian Blues or bulldogs. Yes have Kiwi genetics, but with farm gate prices 5x current levels, so they can be looked after properly.

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:33:56 GMT

[quote user="dave reid"]I have the fondest memories of leading the herd out to pasture in spring for the first time after winter housing. Even the lame cows (of which there were too many), were darting for a hole in the hedge on the track. [/quote]

Yes - I agree. Cows like being outside. Do animals (and humans) intrinsically know what is best for themselves? If I offer a child a bar of chocolate or a bowel of broccoli - which will 95% chose? Personally I'd chose the chocolate, even though I know the broccoli is better for me.

Grazed grass is the wrong food for the modern, high yielding dairy cow. It is better for their welfare to live indoors and have their feed brought to them. If you want to graze grass then calve in the spring and use Kiwi genetics and have short arsed cows that give bugger all milk and have a very low cost system. They will likely be out grazing kale knee deep in mud in November.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:44:54 GMT

Ideally they should be housed in winter, out in summer.

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Anthony Todd — Sat, 30 Jan 2016 10:55:39 GMT

[quote user="dave reid"]New Zealand attitude[/quote]

Having worked in a NZ dairying area claimed to be "the most intensive dairying area in the world" I think we need to be a bit careful of statistics.

These cows were outside year round and it got down to around zero C for a while in the winter.

They were never kept indoors.

They were mainly on grass supplemented with hay and silage in the winter and, from memory, the land supported a cow and replacement per acre.

Key difference is that they were to produce butterfat not milk [volume] so "litres" may not be relevant.

RE: Well done "Independent"

dave reid — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 23:00:34 GMT

Have to say I am not at all comfortable with zero grazing. Admittidly I have never set foot on a zero grazing farm and tb not so prevalent around here. I have the fondest memories of leading the herd out to pasture in spring for the first time after winter housing. Even the lame cows (of which there were too many), were darting for a hole in the hedge on the track. All this was in my pre-vet school days but from my untrained eye back then the only way to describe the attitude of the herd was joyous. It really lightened my heart to see them (and the memory still does).

the trend round here is going with bigger herds, New Zealand attitude, seasonal milking and anything not fitting the calving pattern or causing problems is off on the wagon. I find the lack of compassion uncomfortable but think this attitude will surely improve the gene pool in the long run. I do hear worrying stories from clients spending time on farm in new Zealand of poor welfare and lack of attention, hopefully these are just individual bad practice cases. We get the good and the bad here just the same, don't think herd size is the determining factor.

As a consumer I would rather buy milk from cows grazed outdoors.

RE: Well done "Independent"

Julian Earl — Fri, 29 Jan 2016 16:40:36 GMT

Dick Sibley has a good term for these farms: "Concrete Palaces". Plenty of space and expensive machinery but low on cow-comfort. I think what we have done historically on a lot of dairy farms is whitewash over the problems rather than preventing them. Health Plans and Preventive ?Medicine should always be the core of farm veterinary work. Perhaps things are changing nowadays?

RE: Well done "Independent"

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 18:14:37 GMT

The gradual fall from the best times of the 50s and early 60s had started by the 70s

Wynne

RE: Well done "Independent"

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 17:29:41 GMT

I'm with Michael on this. There is a demonisation of large units.

I worked closely with one of the best Holstein breeders in the country. He had a 400 head of cattle zero grazed and they were a content bunch of cows.

Heifers were reared outside and had a much harder time, not least the TB that clobbered them at pasture (none in the zero grazed indoors, funny that)

A colleague worked in animal welfare and to my knowledge never attended an indoor unit like this. Far worse the high yielding cow with thin skin outside in all weathers with no shelter, or the beef animal stuck in a muddy field.

Everyone wants higher milk prices aside the consumer, the Morrisons experiment with higher prices bombed. In the 1930's wheat prices saw a similar issue. Prices bombed due to American agricultural prowess coming on board and many many farms in the UK failed, but they found a way eventually. We simply cannot negate the world market I'm afraid and i would far rather see larger units than mass closures as is happening now with a view of 'Oh I wish it t'were 50 years ago still'

Neil