A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Danny Chambers — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:00:36 GMT

I've written a summary of why we should restrcit homeopathy by veterinary surgeons which can be read in less than two minutes... feel free to read and share if you find it useful!

https://www.facebook.com/notes/danny-chambers/why-you-should-care-about-vets-using-homeopathy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 09:36:33 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]At the risk of being buried under an avalanche of "curses" I must agree with yo[/quote]So I wonder how I got two successive red stars for my posts and you didn't?!

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]Anyway, my dad always says.....two things you should never mess with....a man's wife, or a man's religion. [/quote] It seems I'm not that wise!

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Nhombokisheni — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 23:51:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]The secret is harnessing the "brain", a story repeated often enough can become "fact"...that human weakness with its origin in the things we do not understand...so we find a way to incorporate them into our "knowledge" base.[/quote]Did I mention religion? I see another parallel here!

[/quote]

At the risk of being buried under an avalanche of "curses" I must agree with you......what comes to mind is one sermon where the preacher was emphasising the power of "believing".....he said, "it is not ours to question the bible but to believe with everything we have.......if you are not getting an answer then the fault is yours for not believing enough....." Anyway, my dad always says.....two things you should never mess with....a man's wife, or a man's religion......so let me rest my case.

Maybe we can't see the "cures" because we don't have enough Faith.........

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 18:04:46 GMT

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Nhombokisheni — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 17:21:06 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]I grew up in a country where juju (magic) was openly recognised[/quote]

Did it work?

[/quote]

Your guess it's as good as mine....all I recall is we lived in perpetual fear of being turned into lizards, toads, etc and one time a group of western pharmacists did challenge a traditional healer regarding the use of lightning to destroy a chosen target......the healer asked anyone in the group to step forward as all demonstration had to be done on living beings..........despite all the vocal opinions of the educated in the group....no one had courage to step forward...so we will never know.

What I know though is that everyone in our area was a believer......no actual evidence was ever produced to my knowledge. It's the stuff of witches really......has anyone ever seen one flying around????? The secret is harnessing the "brain", a story repeated often enough can become "fact"...that human weakness with its origin in the things we do not understand...so we find a way to incorporate them into our "knowledge" base.

Same as homeopathy vets....instead of practicing what we can reasonably defend.....what is fact...I believe they have stayed into that realm where fact stops, and "homeopathy" takes over....

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 15:13:35 GMT

Nhombokisheni I think you've hit on perhaps the most important thing here, two actually.

Firstly, the danger of ridiculing homeopathy.

Jan van Dijk replied to my news story on this subject, suggesting that by highlighting documented homeopathic remedies made from condoms, Hadrian's Wall etc., I was doing precisely that.

The difficulty I have is that whilst it is ABSOLUTELY NOT our intention to belittle or ridicule anyone, there isn't a way of reporting these remedies without them sounding a bit ridiculous.

Nevertheless, I think it is really important to avoid poking fun. It lowers the debate, detracts from the issue and allows homeopaths to brush off the very real and valid concerns held by those of us who argue against the practice.

Which leads me back to your point, Nhombokishini. Over the past weeks, I've had the chance to discuss homeopathy and read posts by a number of proponents.

Time and time again, I ask myself how two educated groups of people can be presented with the same set of facts and draw such different conclusions.

Homeopathy demands we believe illness can be cured by a substance JUST because that substance has been observed (usually by a statistically insignificant, self-selecting group of people, so even the observation is unsound) to cause certain symptoms related to the illness (i.e. treat a cold with an onion, because an onion makes the eyes water).

It further demands that we believe that when ultra-diluted, the remedy's potency is increased. Ultra-diluted is actually a bit of a misnomer. I'm no statistician, but the manner of dilution (dilute in a vial, take one drop of dilution, redilute, take one drop of dilution, redilute again ... and so on ...) means that quite quickly, the statistical chance of there being even a single molecule of the original substance is remote. So it's not actually a dilution. It's simply not there.

As you say, the argument is that water can memorise the homeopathic substance that was first added to it. Beside the fact that nobody has been able to demonstrate this, at that level of dilution it would be impossible for the remedy not to be contaminated with other memories.

How on earth, I ask myself, can an educated person believe there is anything to it?

My theory is this. Over the last decade, I've been engaged in a one-man-band trial of a veritable smorgasbord of drugs for the treatment of my daughter's epilepsy. I cannot tell you how many times I have been utterly convinced I have seen a response to treatment, only to realise later that it was nothing of the sort, but instead either confirmation bias or regression to the mean.

This is what I think lies at the heart of homeopathy. The urge to believe what you see with your own eyes is incredibly powerful. If you were to give a sample group of people a medication made from brick dust (whether or not you dilute it) and tell them it's a miracle cure, a percentage are going to experience the placebo effect (by which I mean an actual physiological response due to the belief). Another percentage will report a response which doesn't actually exist, because they want to believe something has happened and persuade themselves it has. Another percentage will report a response because they improved (but actually, it had nothing to do with the remedy).

When you concentrate the false positive reports in front of a homeopath, they are being exposed to the message that 'this has worked for me' many times a day. Again, it's persuasive stuff.

What still perplexes me is that veterinary homeopaths are aware of concepts like confirmation bias and regression to the mean, and still trust anecdote over randomised controlled trials.

I can only think that the effect of confirmation bias is so profound amongst homeopathic practitioners that it overcomes all else.

IN NO WAY is this a criticism of homeopathic practitioners. I bet we've all of us fallen prey to it. I know I have.

There's a parallel that comes to mind from my flying training. When learning to fly in cloud, the urge to believe your senses (the weight on your arse; the vestibular system) is almost overwhelmingly powerful. But if you do that, you will crash and you will kill yourself. The flying instructor's mantra is: "Trust what the instruments in front of you are saying". Patient anecdote is the medical profession's vestibular system. It's often wrong. RCTs are the instruments.

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 14:02:27 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]I grew up in a country where juju (magic) was openly recognised[/quote]

Did it work?

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 11:05:19 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]All that's left is to admire how such individuals who understand biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology etc can suddenly opt out of "reasoning" to the point of being self convinced that homeopathy works!!!!! How does one even begin to argue with such People......they exist in the kingdom of far far away[/quote]Sadly that logic applies to many other situations in the human experience starting with religion! If billions of people believe in something that doesn't exist to the extent some are prepared to die and kill others for it, what hope is there for other rational belief?

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 23:54:08 GMT

I grew up in a country where juju (magic) was openly recognised.....and since homeopathy (to borrow from an easier post on this thread) is very much in the same realm as magic.....could it just be possible the RCVS has been "treated" and now can't raise a finger against this practice. There is enough evidence to ban this practice on animal welfare grounds, never mind the lack of scientifically proven efficacy.

Another thing is, at a critical time when the world is faced with growing resistance to medications, this, shall we say, very very miniscule exposure of causative agents to medications provides the consummate environment for mutations.

Water comes from rain, rain from surface evaporation condensing in the atmosphere, and if we are to believe homeopathy that water has "memory" ....then there is no such thing as pure water "I.e.water without some kind of memory".......even spring water has chemicals from source.....how then, I wonder, are they able to attribute their "treatments" to the miniscule molecules they add viz existing "memory".

All that's left is to admire how such individuals who understand biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology etc can suddenly opt out of "reasoning" to the point of being self convinced that homeopathy works!!!!! How does one even begin to argue with such People......they exist in the kingdom of far far away.........

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:47:20 GMT

The claims made by UK homeopathic vets are somewhat less fanciful albeit no more tested!

Homeopathic vaccinated dogs are kept safe by properly vaccinated ones!

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Braden Collins — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 06:07:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]For the last twenty years of my career I have concentrated on emergency medicine and surgery. You can perhaps see why I am now actively trying to get the royal college to make homeopathy unethical for vets when this kind of thing exists: http://vitalanimal.com/emergency-vet/[/quote]

Just had a look at that website - homeopathic treatment for parvo and bloat?

How do you treat homeopathically for an RTA? Wash the car that hit the animal, take a drop from that and then dilute?

[/quote]

I actually think that website is an own goal for the homeopaths. Common emergencies like parvo? If you're using proper vaccines rather than homeopathic "vaccines", you won't see parvo as a common disease. Then for burns, RTA's and gun shot wounds? It is a great example of why it should be banned, as using homeopathy in such cases could only lead to suffering.

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

grumpyoldman — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 20:20:41 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Just had a look at that website - homeopathic treatment for parvo and bloat?[/quote]

You will find that this is an excuse to avoid an expensive OOH interaction with a Vet .The last GDV we eventually got to grips with after this treatment and also been getting regular decompressions from a garden hose the owner was using to repeatedly release the gas for 18 hours, predictably by the time we got in there most of the gastric wall was black avascular and necrotic. Offered partial gastrectomy/bilroth but money money money etc . Then you see them on FB saying what a waste of money the ex lap was ,GDVs never get better etc etc . Normal vets all money making B------s all wolfhounds need treating by the sage and onion merchants .

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:17:27 GMT

Just had a look at that website - homeopathic treatment for parvo and bloat?

How do you treat homeopathically for an RTA? Wash the car that hit the animal, take a drop from that and then dilute?

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Jo Dyer — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:31:23 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Even the purest of water must be jam packed with more memories than the musical 'CATS'![/quote]

I've quoted it before, but it bears repeating;

'If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works......
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
But I'll run through the streets yelling
It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And while its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it!'

It's worth 10 minutes of your life to hear the whole thing ......www.youtube.com/watch

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 11:11:43 GMT

The 'memory' cr+p takes a lot of beating! Even the purest of water must be jam packed with more memories than the musical 'CATS'!

Anyone that really believes in this codswallop really needs their heads examined!

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Phil Hyde — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 12:22:06 GMT

Being somewhat long in the tooth, I have lived through a period when the evidence against homeopathy was not as completely damning as it is now. For a year or two I even dabbled with it myself, before eventually realising that homeopathy was different to herbalism. I was a slow learner.

After giving up on homeopathy, I lost track of it for a while, thinking naively that something so obviously stupid would gain no traction with the public.

Fast-forward to today.

Not only has homeopathy become widely accepted (helped not a little by our own heir to the throne) but its claims have gone beyond ridiculous.

For the last twenty years of my career I have concentrated on emergency medicine and surgery. You can perhaps see why I am now actively trying to get the royal college to make homeopathy unethical for vets when this kind of thing exists: http://vitalanimal.com/emergency-vet/

This could be mistaken for a comedy sketch, but no, it is reality. It may be a foreign website, but is is available on a computer/phone near you.

We absolutely MUST signal to the public that this is pure quackery. The only way to do that effectively is through our own elected governing body, along with ALL other veterinary societies in the uk.

Unless you accept magic in the treatment of animals under your care, unless you feel that it is fine for animal owners to be duped into sidestepping your care and using so-called treatments that have been proven not to work, PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION!

If not, welcome to Hogwarts.

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Nhombokisheni — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:31:06 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

In turn, perhaps if you're going to take this campaign on, you might care to address these points when you try to influence RCVS or the public. It may be the case that others think differently, as in might not respond to a colcly logical argument, irrespective of how scientifically rigorous it might be.

[/quote]

There is a saying...if you argue with a fool people might not notice the difference......be careful of "mould fitting" your argument to theirs, inevitably giving them "home advantage". To win we need to get these guys out of their comfort zone.

Those post norminals look impressive, and these guys will aim to get max mileage out of it...."We are highly qualified to do what we do.....how dare you question our depth of certified knowledge.....We know what you know but we have gone further than you......".

I agree they will deflect attention away from debating scientific fact as much as possible.....but check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2011/jan/05/homeopathy-ban-prescription-pets It's old but interesting

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:55:20 GMT

With over-the-counter medication,the limit of what the shop assistant is legally allowed to say (with respect to the medication) is "That will be £x yp"

Wynne

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:53:05 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Both Martin and Bob are factually inaccurate in saying that it is only in the use of POMs that it becomes illegal to treat animals[/quote]I don't recall us saying that - indeed I know I didn't. I can see that sticking needles in something for acupuncture is a surgical act and even administering homoeopathic potions is administering medication, albeit stretching the definition of the word beyond all reason, but Reiki is about as close to an act of veterinary surgery as praying or playing tarot cards, the only difference being someone actually touches the animal. Even for you Wynne I think that is stretching pedantism to the limit.

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:43:48 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

A lot are sufficiently open that if Royal College had the will to prosecute them,then they could. Both Martin and Bob are factually inaccurate in saying that it is only in the use of POMs that it becomes illegal to treat animals

Wynne

[/quote]

Pet shops are full of treatments that are legal without veterinary input. Homeopathic treatments are readily available and do not require veterinary input. All and sundry can legally wave magic 'treatments' over animals.

The responsibilities of those providing these treatments usually end with the supply. They are not legally allowed to diagnose but no restrictions on a bit of guessing!

If this results in unnecessary suffering then a prosecution could result but not very likely. Homoeopathic remedies contain no active substance so only constitutes treatment in the minds of those providing them and the deluded that seek this form of treatment.

Clearly treatment in the narrowest sense is restricted to veterinary surgeons and some exempted groups but this is where medicines are involved.

Not much point enforcing the unenforceable but anyone working under the guise of a veterinary surgeon should be using medicines to the best of their scientific knowledge.

Charging for special seawater whilst claiming wonderful medical benefits is in the realms of the fraudster!

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:16:14 GMT

Wynne

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

grumpyoldman — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:07:02 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] If you consult a lawyer you will find the offence is to diagnose or treat - the means of "treatment" isn't specified.[/quote]

I think your biggest problem here is the practicality of it all , All the transactions are cash ,no invoices records reports , PAYG mobiles, etc ,if people choose to hover in and out of the fringes in the black economy its going to be extremely difficult to pin them down ,and as we all know the CPS like things crystal clear and nailed on before they waste public money.

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 14:54:02 GMT

Martin and Bob. You are both factually inaccurate. If you consult a lawyer you will find the offence is to diagnose or treat - the means of "treatment" isn't specified. Remember,the 1966 Act merely tidied up a few loose ends left by the 1948 Act. In 1948,there were far far fewer POMs than now - antibiotics were in their infancy. Many of the drugs used by both doctors and veterinary surgeons were non POM It was stillillegal for anyone not on the register to diagnose or treat. I agree reiki is as much mumbo umbo as homeopathy. Nevertheless, if someone who isn't on theregister uses it as a form of treatment,then that person is a criminal

Wynne

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

J G Wray — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:34:34 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]So you are buying the EMF meter..[/quote]

I'm not persuaded..

RE: A call to ban veterinary surgeons from prescribing homeopathy as a treatment for animals

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:29:08 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Liz. It already is only veterinary surgeons who can perform Reiki on animals. It is a serious criminal offence for anyone not on the RCVS Register to diagnose or treat disease in animals. If these people are claiming to treat disease in animals, they can be prosecuted under the veterinary surgeons act - regardless of whether or not the "treatment" is effective. The problem is a lack of will by Royal College to prosecute.

Wynne

[/quote]

The monopoly we have as vets really is limited to diagnosis and treatment with POM medication. Other 'treatments' are pretty much a free for all. Sadly some vets have become convinced that unproven and extremely unlikely things are going to help a patient.

Homoeopaths tend to be likable and generally nice people, in my experience. This sympathetic approach is welcomed by many pet owners hence the popularity.

Anyone worked out the post nominals???