Changes in contracts at work

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:19:02 GMT

I confess to coming to this late and not reading many of the responses so some of what I say may be duplicated. But I did a similar thing with my nurse's contracts purely because one was taking the Micky out of my good nature and the flexible working practices we enjoyed. It was aimed fairly and squarely at that one nurse but I had to be seen to be fair so it went in as a general amendment to the terms and conditions. It terminated for that and other reasons with that particular nurse sending in her boyfriend to beat me up so that was the end of her anyway. Now the current nurses are fair and sensible we're back to being flexible. However the rules are now there if someone starts to abuse our good nature again.

So I don't think it sounds totally unreasonable, indeed the previous rules like mine were probably far too open to interpretation and abuse. You may find there is a similar reason behind these changes in your practice and if you ask it may not be as draconian as it seems. However, if it is then this may be just the start of more restrictive practices and you may be better leaving. A similar thing happened to me, albeit changes to my working rota rather than time off, when I was an assistant so I voted with my feet.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:07:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The problem isn't fairness of the new contract but the imposition of it[/quote]

Correct!

The most basic principle of a Contract is that, generally, it can be changed, in any way, by agreement between both parties but not without that agreement.

Of course things like illegality, are excluded.

Dumb and crass way for the principals to behave though, unless the Contract vaguely says something like "you will do everything we direct you to do, whenever we direct it" or something like that.

Sounds like the relationship will not last....

[/quote]

If the contract has a personal clause, it is only that which can be negotiated. Otherwise if your contract is a general document applicable to all employees in your category then all the employer has to do is give you the legal notice about the changes. As long as the employer is not in contravention of any employment laws that apply to you....it's basically a take it or leave scenario. In a lot of sectors employees have become just a number A that must produce X to be retained. A friend was telling at his work place, if you call in sick or get injured at work resulting in missing days, it goes on your disciplinary record!!!

A lot of managers are focused on productivity at the expense of employee welfare, and having colleagues who "want to waltz through life on the back of someone's sweat and blood" does little to help our cause. A couple of vets in a small corner of the world pulling fast ones, dodging work, getting trained then bolting into the proverbial "blue" can easily trigger implementation of maximum "legal provisions" even when scenarios are far fetched in our case........the downside of sharing the planet with p..........!!!!!!

It's correct to call it crass, unfortunately they call it "covering your a!!!!" Heard the one about the monkeys in a tree????????

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:24:33 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The problem isn't fairness of the new contract but the imposition of it[/quote]

Correct!

The most basic principle of a Contract is that, generally, it can be changed, in any way, by agreement between both parties but not without that agreement.

Of course things like illegality, are excluded.

Dumb and crass way for the principals to behave though, unless the Contract vaguely says something like "you will do everything we direct you to do, whenever we direct it" or something like that.

Sounds like the relationship will not last....

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:05:12 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The problem isn't fairness of the new contract but the imposition of it.[/quote]

You may have forgotten something. What you read here is one side of the story.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but it that rhetoric applies you shouldn't comment at all. In anything. The very structure of the forum implies that there's only one side posting. You either post your opinion assuming the information posted is representative enough or you don't.

I do think we all members of the forum post here based on that.

We could all say:

[quote user="J G Wray"]

You may have forgotten something. What you read here is one side of the story.

[/quote]

in each and every thread.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

J G Wray — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:58:00 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The problem isn't fairness of the new contract but the imposition of it.[/quote]

You may have forgotten something. What you read here is one side of the story.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

grumpyoldman — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 01:02:44 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Has anyone told you how much it would cost to replace them? You know that whatever you do, whatever good you do will not go unpunished as the old saying goes.[/quote] True .

At once or over time ? they are all trained in house & Qualified unto 3 years with service records 19 18 11 10 9 6 5 4 3 2 2 years .

They are happy at the moment but the diverse individual needs do take some juggling , them someone pipes up isn't there an APP for rotas ?

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:19:07 GMT

[quote user="Nicola M"]

I don't think the 'losing a half day' and having to arrange cover for weekend or avoid going away that week if working weekend is unusual. My old practice we used to get half a day off IF nobody else was away that week, if they were then we worked it. If taking a day holiday we forfeited our half day if the other vets couldn't all get their half days that week. the weekend rota was arranged for the year at the start of the year-if you took a week off it was your responsibility to get cover for your weekend.

In reality it was really quite flexible and the bosses tried to accommodate last minute requests and would cover things themselves if necessary, likewise the assistants would be flexible and cover things where possible so it very rarely became a problem.

The only bit I think is unreasonable is to be 'available' during your afternoon off -if you're actually given the afternoon off you should get it, if someone is ill and you're asked to cover the afternoon at the last minute then if I could cover I would.

I would talk to practice manager...things are often seem better in person than in writing. If still concerned then I would raise your concerns with the boss

[/quote]

The problem isn't fairness of the new contract but the imposition of it. That practice sounds lovely, what if after a year working there youre shown a new contract that says that your2 vet bosses (who have been covering their fair share of the weekend rota) are no longer working weekends so you and your fellow employees are going to cover this?

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Utlendigur — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:00:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Whether or not you already have a contract (and it sounds as if you do) nobody can make you sign a new one.[/quote]

True, but legally if you just continue working without raising an objection (? in writing) once the new contract comes into force, it can be taken as equivalent to signing

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The practice manager is just an employee. Obviously she feels she has to justify her existence and her salary. [/quote]

I think the same is true of a lot of management CPD and some of these external firms that handle employment law. They seem to feel the need to introduce so much extra regulation to deal with scenarios that are unlikely and could be dealt with with a bit of common sense - problem is the whole process makes the employer regard the employees with suspicion because they are being told of all the ways the staff could shaft him, and the staff are feeling defensive because they start to feel their freedom being eaten away and that they aren't trusted.

Often the initial problem (if there actually is one) gets lost. I had a contract presented to me that stated I "could not change my place of residence without the prior written permission" of the boss. I assume that the point of this was to ensure punctuality, and availability when on call - so why not just say so? Instituting some sort of feudal demand that an employee shouldn't be able to move in with a new partner or buy a house without begging the lord of the manor's permission in writing wasn't going to stop them taking the practice phone and going out for the day on-call. As a conscientious vet I got paranoid if I was more than 15minutes from the practice when on call - so it was totally unnecessary. I refused to sign and it's something I would have resigned over.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Nicola Cole — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:26:24 GMT

I would talk to practice manager...things are often seem better in person than in writing. If still concerned then I would raise your concerns with the boss

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Anthony Todd — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:18:54 GMT

[quote user="Paul Terzer"]Now every month I am shown my takings.[/quote]

We used to measure takings per consult as a benchmark until we discovered that the highest "earner" had every dental on Ceporex for 4 weeks...

We changed it so that we measured things actually done; dentals, Xrays, lab tests etc. Amazing the differences and, as 1000 consults should have [roughly] the same number of bad teeth. bad ears etc. etc. the difference became more striking.

Some vets hate dentals;some hate bitch spays, some hate orthopaedics, some think special diets are nonsense etc., and some vets do very little of anything...

As some business guru told a colleague of mine: "If you don't measure, you can't manage".

So sorry, I hope your figures are at least average.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

J G Wray — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:01:33 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]ll me cynical but...[/quote]

Sometimes you do end up spending a lot of time squaring the circle : my most recent negotiation was with the nurses over OOH rotas ,some wanting in more (needing the money) others wanting out(wealthy boyfriends)

,......n Oh and everyone wants more money. :-) .

[/quote]

Has anyone told you how much it would cost to replace them? You know that whatever you do, whatever good you do will not go unpunished as the old saying goes.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

grumpyoldman — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:24:21 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]ll me cynical but...[/quote]

,grumpy husbands not wanting their own kids all night, and not wanting their wife to be working with a young male vet on her own at night , a third group wanting in but not weekends , a fifth faction with wealthy boyfriends(WAGS) who wanted out for weekends away , others wanting a 4 day week with 40 hours ,others shorter days with late starts for school ,but only in term time in the winter , some wanting out of OOH in school holidays and away matches , others wanting exemption from bank holidays because of child care. Oh and everyone wants more money. :-) .

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:48:35 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

unless there's something wrong with the job that we're missing?

[/quote]

Well, I'd hope that if they OP changes some things back, I would expect some sort of compensation for the changes the practice won't be able to retract. At the end of the day, they are the ones downgrading the job offer.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:34:54 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]but i was always under the impression that contract changes had to be made via mutual consent after appropriate consideration and negotiation , practically this usually mean't explaining the situation, listening to theirs , and meeting people half way .[/quote]

Call me cynical but...

[/quote]you are cynical

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:24:22 GMT

[quote user="Paul Terzer"]Sorry I could not get back to most of you. Been a busy weekend on call.[/quote]

On the plus side - your figures will look good this month

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Rob Loxley — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:15:41 GMT

Back to the OP:

[quote user="Paul Terzer"]8 weeks notice for annual leave[/quote]

we run a 6 week rota, changing it once published is a PITA so essentially we ask for 6wks notice of a week's holiday, occasional days can often be accomodated at shorter notice. if you need locum cover for vet leave then 8 weeks would be very understandable
we have a limit on 'long weekends' as every one of these taken by one vet ties up two weeks that someone else can't book a week's holiday in
half days are half days, though if the proverbial hits we will work overtime to finish things

[quote user="Paul Terzer"]If you want a single day off in the week you will have to take it on your half day[/quote]

then surely it's only a half day of holiday, since the other half was your half day anyway? if they're going to play this, it's worth looking at your annual leave in terms of hours and applying it this way

[quote user="Paul Terzer"]New clause in the contract. If you hand in your notice[/quote]

clawbacks for expensive CPD (e.g. certificates or multi-year courses) are common and I see why but should be arranged at the outset. we have enforced them when staff have left

In sum, the half days sound like something that can be sorted I'd hope, the CPD clause needs discussion if not previously mentioned, and the notice for annal leave doesn't sound too bad to make me leave, unless there's something wrong with the job that we're missing?

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Paul Terzer — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:26:34 GMT

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts. Good to see points from both sides. I will having a meeting with the PM and the boss this week.

Sorry I could not get back to most of you. Been a busy weekend on call.

Paul

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Utlendigur — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:48:42 GMT

Call me cynical but...

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:39:45 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The comment might be empty if you'd like (I found that offensive to start with, hence my answer).[/quote]

Your comment offered no hope, it was empty.

[/quote]

its empty for you, if you are the employer. If you are the employee, it offers the hope of knowing that might be other better opportunities out there where employers or managers aren't going to impose their new T&C without discussing them with you first

RE: Changes in contracts at work

grumpyoldman — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:36:43 GMT

Maybe its changed now , its hard to keep up with all the subtle tweaks that go on and on with employment regulation but i was always under the impression that contract changes had to be made via mutual consent after appropriate consideration and negotiation , practically this usually mean't explaining the situation, listening to theirs , and meeting people half way .

RE: Changes in contracts at work

J G Wray — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:35:45 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The comment might be empty if you'd like (I found that offensive to start with, hence my answer).[/quote]

Your comment offered no hope, it was empty.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]But the changes proposed in the contract might be sufficient for someone to decide that they don't want that job anymore. [/quote]

Maybe, but that's the point, maybe.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Can you think of a single event perpetrated by an employee being sufficient to be fired 'on the spot'? [/quote]

Yup, where's this leading?

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Well, I think this qualifies.[/quote]

Oh dear. Organisations are allowed to manage themselves y'know. That's kind of why they appoint managers.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:05:55 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

What's wrong with discussion and negotiation particularly from a position backed up by good performance?

[/quote]

Ok, Jonathon. First of all, apologies if my comment offended you. I will try to answer the questions in the way you asked them.

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I would just leave if possible, to be brutally honest.[/quote]

This empty comment reminds me of this:

From Page-Jones VR paper

Research suggests that commercialism is of least importance to vet students in terms of desirable character traits and of low importance to their academic tutors (Roder and others 2012). Therefore, considerable learning and work must be done by vets (and vet nurses) who are likely to enter the profession with a distorted view of the contemporary industry and a professional identity that is incompatible with it. This work may begin with the acceptance that different ethical and moral standards exist within the industry, but these cannot simply be divided into right and wrong. It would, perhaps, be helpful to accept that ethical and moral standards exist along a continuum and will vary between organisations and veterinary professionals, but that jointly working towards a compromise will provide mutual benefit. Continuing to move role in an attempt to find congruence may not prove fruitful in the contemporary profession and may simply result in a slightly different mismatch;...

[/quote]

The comment might be empty if you'd like (I found that offensive to start with, hence my answer). But the changes proposed in the contract might be sufficient for someone to decide that they don't want that job anymore. Can you think of a single event perpetrated by an employee being sufficient to be fired 'on the spot'?

Well, I think this qualifies.

[quote]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Edit: And remind your new practice manager of the costs of finding another vet.[/quote]

How far do you think advice like this will get the OP?

[/quote]

As far as finding another job?

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:03:58 GMT

Francisco, no need to apologise for your point of view, we all have different experiences and perspectives, which make this forum great.

Now, there is nothing in the OP to suggest there has been no joy from discussing the "confusing" bits with the new manager. So why encourage drastic steps. The OP does not say it's the boss who is bringing this......it's the new guy on the block. Surely if you can approach a nurse our fellow vet as you put it, why not grant the new block the same Opportunity to clarify their position/action before escalating.

Change is painful at times...the truth is new management approaches have overtaken the old comfortable order.......bosses are no longer lone operatives (Save for a few who run small and still make all their decision), in practices where they need managers, the boss has surrendered some of his roles and its only fair employees respect these arrangements....

I must confess, one thing I truly found difficult to adapt to was giving up my "certificate granted superior position" to a lay manager......that "who is she/he attitude......I am the vet here blar blar blar......only the boss can tell me what to do....". Change is real, either manage it our it will manage you.

Let's focus on the OP, and offer impartial advice that will help make an informed decision.

RE: Changes in contracts at work

J G Wray — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:44:51 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]It is unfortunate Jonathon, that your single 'funnel' view generates impulsive comments like the one you just delighted us with.[/quote]

Nothing impulsive about my reference to a paper published earlier on this year in the VR old fruit. As I said it reminded me (after some thought) of the observation.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Go ahead, read the full thread before commenting.[/quote]

I did and your hapless comment about the cost of recruiting another vet didn't look like a particularly useful one, nor do I think going outside a management structure is sound advice either. What's wrong with discussion and negotiation particularly from a position backed up by good performance?

RE: Changes in contracts at work

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:41:53 GMT

Francisco: on this occasion, I agree with JGW. The OP was asking for advice. I'm sure that they are capable of deciding to leave without needing further advice. The fact that they asked means they presumably would prefer to sort out this conflict rather than walk away.

If the job is otherwise fulfilling and enjoyable, it would be a real shame to leave it on the basis of a contract change which may not even have much impact on the OP!