Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

grumpyoldman — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:48:04 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]From that I assume you are the boss[/quote]

yes, I guess the employers your with need the money more than I do. When I see bad people being appeased by good people being too frightened to upset them Neville Chamberlain springs to mind, the more ground you give ,the more some people will push you into a corner. Your not creating good will keeping bad people happy ,your just feeding their bullying egos.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

ruths — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:29:07 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

Ruths I dont know enough about the proposals to the junior Drs contracts to judge but I find it hard to think that there is any justification for a doctor withdrawing their labour. If even one person dies as a result then that would be shameful though no doubt they would blame Jeremy Hunt for that to salve their consciences. I saw my father suffer on a hospital ward from Friday night to Monday morning with a skeleton staff so something needs to be done about weekends. There's a finite amount of cash and the status quo needs to change. I hope they find a solution and there needs to be less posturing and more negotiating.

Re leaving if a vet doesnt like grief from clients , I agree that some people are not cut out to deal with people and would be happier in another job and that some individuals are unable to change their behaviours for various reasons but the pendulum has swung too far of being tolerant and understanding of bad behaviours. Eventually there will be no one willing to be in the front line. I don't know what the answer is in the NHS but I certainly challenged badly behaved clients in my practice if they were rude to my staff . it would have been far easier to shrug my shoulders and stay in the consult room but sometimes we need to draw the line. Im not talking about people with mental health issues here but people who should know better and who think that chucking their weight around gets them to the front of the queue or better service.

[/quote]

the BMA have done a quick FAQ here http://m.bma.org.uk/working-for-change/junior-and-consultant-contract/ddrb-recommendations-analysis-for-juniors/ia-faq

The changes involve the working week for junior doctors going up to 90hrs and beyond that there is no limit on overtime. At the moment, the trust will be fined if the doctors work over their 60hrs a week and so they tend to stick to it. In the new proposals, this fine is abolished, so effectively there is no limit to what hours the doctors can be forced to work.

They will get a basic pay rise BUT they won't be able to claim for the unsociable hours worked as they are changing what unsociable hours actually are. So, effectively, a good umber of them will get a pay cut.

The authors of the paper that Hunt is quoting to justify changing the hours have specificslly said that Hunt's conclusion of their work is wrong.

Basicslly, they are asking the doctors to work more hours and get less money.

the doctors are worried about patient safety and aLao feel betrayed - many of them are very angry

I also think you shoudk sack people who are rude and who don't behave in an appropriate wsy. I have certainly done that. I've had to call the police before and have them escort clients to the clinic. I don't get angry and worked up about it any more.

i do my best for the animal if the owner will let me- I wasted too much energy on getting cross and worked up. These days, I just get on with doing what I can and I don't accept people being rude.

I've burnt out once and I refuse to do it again. The only person's behaviour I can change is mine

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Utlendigur — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:34:14 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]The only difference really , and probably why I am still here is that occasionally ,when someone had been a complete and utter gargoyle ,upset all the staff and some of the vets ,been rude and abusive etc ....... I can and do say , "i do not need your money please take your business elsewhere in future because frankly your just not worth it"[/quote]

From that I assume you are the boss As an employee though I regularly experienced the converse - when the abusive vexatious gargoyles get money knocked off the bill, reduced fees, repeat prescriptions without much needed check-ups or other special treatment to try to appease them - basically training the clients to complain

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:51:24 GMT

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

ruths — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:12:38 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

I agree entirely Grumpy, ame how often on sacking a client would they say " you can't do that" because the NHS had been forced to put up with their aggressive behaviour. We even had them begging to stay on occasion. I used to love it when they demanded to see the boss and I could say , you're looking at her ! please leave the premises. Perhaps if the NHS management showed the medical staff that they were on their side and had zero tolerance to bad behaviour they would feel more motivated and supported, because it doesn't seem to be pay that's making doctors miserable but all the auditing and justifying that is demanded of them while their some of their patients behave like spoiled kids. Now I really am sounding like an old dinosaur.

[/quote]

clare, if my pal, the junior doctor id anything to go by, it's the propaosed change in working conditions and the dfesdful behaviour by Jeremy hunt that is the problem just now.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

ruths — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:10:38 GMT

I'm not usually the sort of person who days stuff like this, but if you can't cope with the attitude of the public then maybe you are in the wrong job.

i deal with all sorts of complicated people in my work and have had some really difficult situations and in the end I've come to the conclusion that I find a way to deal with it or I get out of the profession

What do you think needs to happen to make the job better?

if the answer is somebody else changing their behaviour, well, let me tell you, you are going to wait a long long time.

the only way you can manage a situation like that is either find a way to deal with it in situ or leave.

There'd nothing you can do to change the public, so you have to hangs something about yourself or your situation. I can't really see how you would get through it otherwise.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:44:44 GMT

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

grumpyoldman — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:49:08 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"] I think the trust between professionals and their patients or clients that used to exist has been irretrievably eroded and resulted in defensive medicine , squandered resources and poor morale. Not that this fragile trust would be helped at all by doctors taking industrial action which I think would be appalling under any circumstances. [/quote]

The only difference really , and probably why I am still here is that occasionally ,when someone had been a complete and utter gargoyle ,upset all the staff and some of the vets ,been rude and abusive etc ....... I can and do say , "i do not need your money please take your business elsewhere in future because frankly your just not worth it". A doctor of any kind can't do that unless they are actually assaulted by someone and even then there will be a case conference about it where some social worker will put the assailants point of view .

The entitlement and willingness to complain is tied up with the old rights without responsibilities chestnut. I am still a fan of those making vexatious and malicious complaints about any professional person being liable to pay for the cost of those investigations after the event if the complaints are proven to be vexatious and malicious. I think if one or two gargoyles lost their houses in legal fees after being deliberately evil ,they would all think twice before doing it in future particularly if it got into the

press. Accountability is necessary but it has to be a double edged sword.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:52:57 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]You've only got to look at the proposed strike by junior doctors to see we're not the only profession to be unhappy with working conditions. Or do you consider them to be workshy layabouts as well?[/quote]

I was speaking to a junior doctor 3 days ago who was considering her long term future , after qualifying 2 years ago , she was going back into the pharmaceutical Industry , mostly because she did not want to carry on dealing with the public at 1st opinion level, the money and hours were less significant issues. She asked me how I coped with them for so long on a day to day basis.

[/quote]

and yes, if she can't cope with the public then she is in the wrong profession. It's a shame, really, but hopefully she will find something more suited.

[/quote] why should she have to cope with unacceptable behaviour from the general public or give up? The behaviour of the general public seems to be a major factor in contributing to dissatisfaction in both the medical professions and vets. The sense of entitlement and willingness to complain is overwhelming. I think the trust between professionals and their patients or clients that used to exist has been irretrievably eroded and resulted in defensive medicine , squandered resources and poor morale. Not that this fragile trust would be helped at all by doctors taking industrial action which I think would be appalling under any circumstances.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

ruths — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:46:29 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[/quote]

and yes, if she can't cope with the public then she is in the wrong profession. It's a shame, really, but hopefully she will find something more suited.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

ruths — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 12:43:59 GMT

She was barely out of training.

I don't think she speaks for the majority, though. The objection of the junior doctors is over proposed changes to the working conditions and pay, however.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

grumpyoldman — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:33:20 GMT

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

karen jones — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 21:04:34 GMT

My husband is a paramedic and works 12 hour shifts. There is no way he could work more hours than he does. The stress , aggrevation and abuse he under goes on a regular basis are way more than I do. on average I probably work more hours a week than he does but the shit he has to put up with, hours waiting with sick patients outsode a and e as no bEdd in side., having to get to calls in 8 minutes or having to explain why ( rural area with big miles between places ). There are days when he's counting down to retirement !!

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:51:25 GMT

I don't think you can compare the emergency services with the veterinary profession. For a start, the former are funded by the taxpayer, so the resources are considerably more. And until the advent of ooh clinics, vets had to do on call on top of an already very long working day. You've only got to look at the proposed strike by junior doctors to see we're not the only profession to be unhappy with working conditions. Or do you consider them to be workshy layabouts as well?

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:34:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Some in our profession would like to see the 24hour provision dropped. If the French emergency services had that attitude, last night would have been much worse.

[/quote]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that we should drop the requirement to provide 24hr cover, there has been a lot of debate about how it should be provided, but that is a completely different argument.

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:10:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Some in our profession would like to see the 24hour provision dropped.

[/quote]

I see what u mean now. Thats a different debate alltogether

RE: Vets Vs other professions attitude towards working unsocial hours

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 10:54:32 GMT

I know I won't, but integrity is more important to me than popularity.

Some in our profession would like to see the 24hour provision dropped. If the French emergency services had that attitude, last night would have been much worse.

The great pity is that those who aren'tprepared to do their share of out of hours were ever allowed into university in the 1st place. The veterinary course is over-subscribed, so each one kept someone else out - who might have been prepared for the commitment necessary

Wynne