The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:41:09 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"] As for geriatric screening bloods, then we may well be picking up 'normal' animals that lie outside the normal lab reference ranges.[/quote]

A single blood test with an abnormal result won't dictate a course of treatment, though it may direct investigations. Even if it is something simple like urinalysis to rule out renal disease.

Over the weekend a cat came in that was suddenly very flat, PU/PD and inappetant. It had had a preanaesthetic bloods 4 months previously before a dental and they were normal. It's now azotaemic; I know this is more likely to be an AKI than CKD that the owners hadn't picked up on. This changes prognosis and my treatment plan.

Point is; yes, often PABs don't show anything except the dog is healthy. However, they can be then used as a baseline for comparison. Sods law will dictate the time you don't offer PABs to an older animal, it'll have something going on and will deteriorate post-GA. Arsey owner, complains to RCVS - if you didn't offer PABs do you have much of a defence?

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Rob Loxley — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:32:14 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]Or how about worming dogs every 3 months - is that not contributing to resistance?[/quote]

Is it; you tell me?

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Nhombokisheni — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 18:45:34 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]

You seem to talk about these companies as if they are some sort of evil thing and that I am doing their bidding..?

[/quote]

My point is this.....are these companies evil???- not necessarily. Are they perceived to be evil???? Yes. As you said, even those who know you think you are infiltrating the campus.......so as long as you wear their colours......you cannot avoid being painted with the same brush......you simply become the face of that evil.

One engineering consultant charged a company a million dollars for fixing their problem.........$1 for the component.....and$999 999.00 for knowing to place it. You charge what you know you are worthy.....before you lambast someone, do you know the story behind the figures??????

Of course, like every other profession we have our own share of "unscrupulous, unethical, and frankly, rotten tomatoes", soft targets for these companies who front for them at a price and people know this.....does this make all vets bad..NO.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

No Name — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 12:57:04 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

when did profit (sensible, not exorbitant), become such a dirty word? when you get a job, where do you think a chunk of the money to pay the staff comes from? what do you think are the costs of maintaining stocks of drugs?

[/quote]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Secondly I hope you will accept sooner rather than later, that the word "profit" is the root of why, and the pursuit of every business venture....show me a charity shop that does not make a profit, a "non-profit" organisation that does not make a profit or a client who doesn't!!!!!!

I will never apologise for making a profit and neither should you our any vet. No-one is forced to come to our practices....they come because we add value to everything we sell and take full responsibility for the outcomes of our recommendations. Those drugs are just liquids until we link them with the animal's condition. Why do you think we have a problem with drug resistance today.....and can you imagine what will be the case if these companies completely by passed vets. The companies are here to make money......and we are here to make money...as long as you are ethical and make it honestly, then tough luck on those who feel vets should be poor or be seen to be just getting by....I love life and it costs a great deal to live it!!!!!!!

[/quote]

When did I ever say in my post that 'profit' was bad or unnecessary??? I actually run a small business and so understand the concept of profit.

As for whether we always sell ethically, then that might be questioned too. How many practices sell pre-op blood even to animals with no obvious disease? (I've seen prices range from £30-100). In human medicine pre-op blood rarely change an anesthetic protocol. Or how about worming dogs every 3 months - is that not contributing to resistance? As for geriatric screening bloods, then we may well be picking up 'normal' animals that lie outside the normal lab reference ranges. And all the treatments that are sold with scant evidence, without telling the owner this fact.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]...it's not you but the "crowd" you are running with. They are known for who they really are......and when you represent them you are painted with the same brush.[/quote]

You seem to talk about these companies as if they are some sort of evil thing and that I am doing their bidding..?

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Nhombokisheni — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 11:14:11 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]

I can understand why some of the public are a bit suspicious. I've been a student rep for a pet food company as well as for a pharmaceutical company during my 4th and 5th year. My (non vet) family think I am 'infiltrating' the vet school, or that they are paying me to 'like' them. I think some of their products are very good ones and actually quite enjoy working for them -- I don't see this as a problem and know that they just want us to be aware of their products. What I think is more of an insult is when the public think that we can't be discerning/critical and that we must take all advertising at face value. Or when the public think we cannot sell ethically.

As for making profit on drugs, apparently I heard that in some countries (was it Finland?) vets were not allowed to make profit on drug sales. So I suppose it's possible to run a business like that?

[/quote]

Not all that glitters is gold. These companies do not "like" you......you are just a conduit to their market. Period. Your training and professional station allows you to gain the trust and confidence of the "consumers" and they will use every trick to tag you along. The question you need to ask yourself is why are others thinking you are infiltrating..........it's not you but the "crowd" you are running with. They are known for who they really are......and when you represent them you are painted with the same brush.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Rob Loxley — Sat, 14 Nov 2015 09:22:35 GMT

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]know that they just want us to be aware of their products[/quote]

no, they want you to buy their products; they are just cleverer than you think at doing this. the free lab coats/ stethoscopes/ pizzas are carefully calculated
pharmaceutical companies in particular have been well known to start profiling medical professionals at an early stage in their careers

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]when the public think that we can't be discerning/critical and that we must take all advertising at face value[/quote]

many do. for example we have had recently presented a couple of new products I can think of whose application/efficacy (by their own data) is somewhat sketchy

[quote user="SilverstarDJ"]making profit on drugs[/quote]

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

grumpyoldman — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 23:48:38 GMT

Its pretty easy to squeeze the odd staff night out from a few of the bigger suppliers. But it is just the odd once in a blue moon event ,the last one was after the sevoflo ran out , my nurses got wind of it and stocked up in anticipation while others did not , we agreed to let them have some back to prevent some people having to down tools for a week ...........they owed us one and they knew it !!!.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

No Name — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 23:28:39 GMT

As for making profit on drugs, apparently I heard that in some countries (was it Finland?) vets were not allowed to make profit on drug sales. So I suppose it's possible to run a business like that?

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:38:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Seems my mother reads this - Red Star Mom? :) (Mom's not a vet, I promise! We get along, but it's a challenging relationship! )

[/quote]Someone just gave you five stars - could have been me or your dad!

[/quote]

Probably wasn't Dad, unless he's less dead than we thought, in which case I'm going to be very impressed by his acting skills this last year - didn't say a word all this last year in the urn!

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 12:34:38 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Seems my mother reads this - Red Star Mom? :) (Mom's not a vet, I promise! We get along, but it's a challenging relationship! )

[/quote]Someone just gave you five stars - could have been me or your dad!

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:28:27 GMT

Seems my mother reads this - Red Star Mom? :) (Mom's not a vet, I promise! We get along, but it's a challenging relationship! )

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:22:20 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]

Just bugs me that this is heading down the RMB path of "vets are doing things to line their pockets".

Maybe they need to invite the jouno's to a CPD event so they see it's not some rep simply saying "this pet food/drug will make you rich".

[/quote]I've told you Braden, life is too short to worry about it. Its vets this week, next week it will be something else, they'll move on, this sort of shit sells newspapers but often there is no smoke without fire.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Braden Collins — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:14:33 GMT

We do indeed have these things, but I can't think of the last time a rep bought us lunch. Maybe 18 months ago? And then it was subway. I'm not going to sell my soul for anything less than a bloody big steak.

I have no ethical issue with them sponsoring stuff. Royal Canin paid for most of our signage at our second clinic. Just bugs me that this is heading down the RMB path of "vets are doing things to line their pockets".

Maybe they need to invite the jouno's to a CPD event so they see it's not some rep simply saying "this pet food/drug will make you rich".

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:01:13 GMT

So none of the CPD meetings/conferences you go to are sponsored by pharmaceutical companies? You don't have free lunch and learns? You don't have hospitality at events sponsored by pharma companies? We do in the UK - OK maybe they're not lavish the budget won't stretch to it but the principal is the same. One company has launched a reward for case histories for animals treated with a new drug which is effectively paying us to use it. We live in a dog eat dog world, there's no such thing as free lunch.

RE: The relationship between your pet and pharmaceutical companies.

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:44:33 GMT

Hey, don't look at me! I'd sell my mother for a cheap pen. In fact, if you knew my mother, you'd sell her too!!!