Am I being fair?

RE: Am I being fair?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Nov 2015 07:30:36 GMT

Each to their own Michael. I work to live.

RE: Am I being fair?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:50:52 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]is a quick route to a 24hr job these days! [/quote]

That's what i thought I had signed up for - from doing work experience in the mid-late 90's through to qualifying 9 years ago. All the vets I spent time with did their own on call. Of the three practices one was 1:2, one 1:3 and one 1:4. I am doing exactly what I thought all vets did!

I'll empty your dog's anal glands at midnight if you are prepared to pay extra for it. I've done all sorts of 'routine' work at odd times. I've even done OOH calls for the other vets in the practice just because I enjoy them.

RE: Am I being fair?

grumpyoldman — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 18:59:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] They do need a bit of training and this takes time.[/quote] This is true , particularly the bottom rung that will tend to treat practices like hairdressers and dog groomers ,better to just aim higher up the pyramid .

RE: Am I being fair?

Bob Russell — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:23:45 GMT

The business model choice really depends on what a practice wants. A practice claiming cheap fees and no appointment required, is going to be profitable if there is a rapid throughput of clients over a long day. Generally less experienced vets who will change often as they get fed up or burn out. The client takes priority over staff and (arguably) patient.

More traditional models allow more time and (I believe) less pressure on vets during the working day. Less chopping and changing of staff, better knowledge of client and patient.

I know which type I would want and find it much more satisfying to know patients from 'cradle to grave'.

Clients must decide what they want and are willing to pay for. They do need a bit of training and this takes time.

RE: Am I being fair?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:02:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Are you a fan of autocracy in running a practice then? I ask because my experience of owning a practice with another colleague is just fine.

[/quote] I quote "The English word "leadership" originates in the ancient root leith, which meant "to go forth and die," as in battle. By this definition, those who lead Group A to commit violence against Group B are "leaders." Even if we remove violence from the equation, and even if the "leader" represents some higher cause or value, the word still means the act of mobilizing one group to dominate or vanquish another. Particularly in our shrinking, interconnected world, this is not a particularly inspiring or comprehensive portrait of leadership." (http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/leaders). I have always marveled at how we invest in trying to decorate our primitive nature (Martin help me here). We lead inorder to get to the top of the pile...........not just to walk with pile. From the above article ""The most effective leaders are, first models of what I call principle-centered leadership," writes Covey. "They have come to realize that we're all subject to natural laws or governing principles, which operate regardless of our awareness of them or our obedience to them. Our effectiveness is predicated upon alignment with these inviolable principles -- natural laws in the human dimension that are just as real, just as unchanging, as laws such as gravity are in the physical dimension. These principles are woven into the fabric of every civilized society and constitute the roots of every organization that has endured." True leadership is not the same as autocracy........its the ability to harness the nature that governs mankind...defining and utilising talents in your team that they are not even aware they possess, carrying them across "barriers" that have been created by the multitudes of pessimists masquerading as "leaders". In the end we are all different.........as they say .......its uncivil to offer your cigarettes to others because each man prefers his own brand of suicide....your style is yours, mine is mine. Personally, i strongly dislike it when leaders call meetings to diplomatically get staff to "rubber stamp" their plans..........,the "we are all in this together" tosh. I you have decided this is where we are going then just tell us and we will follow!!!!!!!

RE: Am I being fair?

J G Wray — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:53:56 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Not sure what you're trying to say[/quote]

This demonstrating a "fixed mindsat" and playing "below the line" - how much more clear would you like me to be?

RE: Am I being fair?

J G Wray — Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:50:54 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]I don't know if it's just me...I was in sync with you until the last sentence......engaging in a "discussion", no matter how its done, implies you are open to suggestions and changes to your vision.[/quote]

Really?

First of all, this is a lengthy quote from a book about veterinary practice and what I took from it is different in so far as once you have articulated the vision for your practicea and it is ageeed, discussion about operational matters happens within the context of the vision. Operational or tactical matters don't alter strategy, they are developed to maintain the strategy.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]I am not a great fan of "two minds are better than one" [/quote]

Are you a fan of autocracy in running a practice then? I ask because my experience of owning a practice with another colleague is just fine.

RE: Am I being fair?

grumpyoldman — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:22:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]A sort of "I have a problem/need/desire/whim/urge, and I want it NOW"?[/quote]

There are definitely several "Verruca Salt" types out there singing i want it now ,I often wish for a machine in the waiting room that sorts good clients from bad ones , like golden eggs.

RE: Am I being fair?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:36:04 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]...the first man to give us fire was burnt on the stake.....the guy who made the first wheel suffered a similar fate......[/quote]

Citation required.

RE: Am I being fair?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:32:34 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Maybe that is true leadership for you, I rather be right as often as possible http://www.nature.com/articles/srep11869

[/quote]

Right by whose vision.......yours OR of a collective???? One way to always be right is never to venture beyond the tested and tried....always set your vision to mirror what has been done. I believe the initial post I responded to was about implementing what you have decided it's the best option.....not what others think is.

The experiment has a flaw.......it doesn't first evaluate the individual performances before linking the animals. In fact when a man of vision carries a group.....the overall performance improves. Animals in groups behave and form a hierarchy.....one takes the lead.......the rest follow.

No-one knows the exact outcome of a vision.......unless you walk and live your vision. When you compromise in order to be "right as much as possible" it's no longer the pursuit of a vision.......but the achievement of safely tried measures where collective responsibility and accountability provides a comfortable safety net, a paradox in that accountability cannot be shared!!!!!!!

Always remember...the first man to give us fire was burnt on the stake.....the guy who made the first wheel suffered a similar fate......why.....because they dared to go where no-one had gone before........the greatest joy in this profession is the opportunity to "walk down uncharted roads".

RE: Am I being fair?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:25:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Would it to be fair to say that now, people, in general, have less consideration for others?[/quote]

Yes. That's all I was saying.

[quote user="J G Wray"]The signs are all there, blaming, shaming etc.[/quote]

Not sure what you're trying to say. However, II am happy that our working practices are fine....and my staff are usually happy. Last appointment 6.30 close at 7pm etc. I do think that understaffing and poor rota management is a big problem in a lot of places. I was simply pointing out that the idea of 'give the client whatever they want, because you can't afford to lose any work' is a quick route to a 24hr job these days!

RE: Am I being fair?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:48:57 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

I came across this passage in a book and thought of the OP's original question:

"..

The need for consensus is a disease of today’s addled mind. It’s a product of our troubled and confused times. When people don’t know what to believe in, they often ask others to tell them. To ask is not to lead but to follow.

The prerequisite of sound leadership is first to know where you wish to go.

And so, “What do I want?” becomes the first question; not, “What do they want?”

[/quote]

Blimey, you sound just like something Zarathrusta might have said...

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

I am not a great fan of "two minds are better than one"

If you know what you want, how to achieve it, just do it.........there will be challenges along the way....true leadership is about navigating these and taking full responsibilities for the failures and successes.

I stand to be convinced otherwise.

[/quote]

Maybe that is true leadership for you, I rather be right as often as possible http://www.nature.com/articles/srep11869

RE: Am I being fair?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:45:02 GMT

The advantage of being in veterinary practice though is you have the option to:

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]just do it[/quote]

or, these days, transfer the phone to OOH, and at 6.30pm too........

RE: Am I being fair?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:27:26 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

The prerequisite of sound leadership is first to know where you wish to go.

It’s important to know (1) exactly what you want, (2) how you intend to proceed, (3) what’s important to you and what isn’t, and (4) what you want the practice to be and how you want it to get there.

Once you have that agreement, it’s critical that you engage your people in a discussion about what you intend to do and why. Be clear—both with yourself and with them..."

[/quote]

I don't know if it's just me...I was in sync with you until the last sentence......engaging in a "discussion", no matter how its done, implies you are open to suggestions and changes to your vision. Over the years, I have had the opportunity to head some institutions.......and once I had my vision sorted....it was always about implementation. I am not a great fan of "two minds are better than one"

I stand to be convinced otherwise.

RE: Am I being fair?

J G Wray — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:55:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Clients have changed....they feel 'entitled' to ask for whatever they want, whenever they want it.[/quote]

[quote user="grumpyoldman"] ....Blairs children ,the google generation seem to demand this ,they also have no respect for other peoples private time. [/quote]

The signs are all there, blaming, shaming etc.

RE: Am I being fair?

J G Wray — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:46:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]There was a song "and I want it now" but I can't remember the key first line, but you may get the drift.[/quote]

Queen "I want it all" chorus

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Would it to be fair to say that now, people, in general, have less consideration for others?[/quote]

Have a look at this

http://www.wmfc.org/uploads/GenerationalDifferencesChart.pdf

RE: Am I being fair?

J G Wray — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:39:47 GMT

I came across this passage in a book and thought of the OP's original question:

"..

The prerequisite of sound leadership is first to know where you wish to go.

And so, “What do I want?” becomes the first question; not, “What do they want?” In your own practice, the vision must first be yours. To follow another’s vision is to abdicate your personal accountability, your leadership role, your true power.

In short, the role of leader cannot be delegated or shared. And without leadership, no veterinary practice will ever succeed.

Despite what you have been told, win-win is a secondary step, not a primary one. The opposite of win-win is not necessarily they lose.

Let’s say “they” can win by choosing a good horse. The best choice will not be made by consensus. “Guys, what horse do you think we should ride?” will always lead to endless and worthless discussions. By the time you’re done jawing, the horse will have already left the post.

Before you talk to your people about what you intend to do in your practice and why you intend to do it, you need to reach agreement with yourself.

Once you have that agreement, it’s critical that you engage your people in a discussion about what you intend to do and why. Be clear—both with yourself and with them..."

RE: Am I being fair?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:34:58 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Part of the problem is that for some of them their employers have no respect for their private time[/quote]

Would it to be fair to say that now, people, in general, have less consideration for others?

A sort of "I have a problem/need/desire/whim/urge, and I want it NOW"?

eg credit [does any modvet remember "lay-by"?

There was a song "and I want it now" but I can't remember the key first line, but you may get the drift.

RE: Am I being fair?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:11:31 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

We get far more OOH none emergency queries than 10 or 20 years ago , Blairs children ,the google generation seem to demand this ,they also have no respect for other peoples private time.

[/quote]

Part of the problem is that for some of them their employers have no respect for their private time. I have several friends in non-veterinary jobs whose employers expect them to be contactable all the time. If that is normal for them, they may not realise that it isn't normal for everyone else.

I also think most people would be very surprised that vets do on call on top of a normal working day, they probably expect someone to be awake and working when they call in the middle of the night. I don't do any on call in my current job, but in my last job I had several occasions when I saw someone during the night, and when I saw them again the following morning they were very surprised that I was at work.

RE: Am I being fair?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:09:40 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]they also have no respect for other peoples private time. [/quote]

"But I thought all vets cared about animals?" ["Do you know good kennel at 11.30pm....."]

Sorry that is the retort to, among others:

No money, neglect of an obvious injury or condition, very late for appointment, in fact any "client" unacceptable behaviour.....

RE: Am I being fair?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:07:22 GMT

Fine to only book 1 cat spay in per morning - as long as this is reflected in the veterinary surgeon's salary, the cost of the cat spay, or a mixture of both.

Wynne

RE: Am I being fair?

grumpyoldman — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:55:52 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Clients have changed....they feel 'entitled' to ask for whatever they want, whenever they want it. (Obviously some geographical areas worse than others). Unless we draw a line, we'd be doing boosters and EAG at 2am.[/quote]

Some of them have ,its the confusion over 24 hour emergency service provision and 24 hour service , A mess that is about to be made worse when V4P decide to start doing 24 hour aka TESCO. We get far more OOH none emergency queries than 10 or 20 years ago , Blairs children ,the google generation seem to demand this ,they also have no respect for other peoples private time.

RE: Am I being fair?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:16:26 GMT

Nah, they were always like that! We used to wait for a no-show [if awake still] for an hour or two then ring them, asking where they were? "We stopped at the RSPCA on the way etc."

Don't talk about "educating clients"; you can't and they won't, 6.55 clients are always that!

What has changed is that, back in the day, clients were literally queueing out the door.

Can you afford to lose too many clients just because [as some always have, and always will] they decide to ring at 6.55?

That's the difference!

RE: Am I being fair?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:47:11 GMT

But, Anthony, times have changed...as has the attitude of our clients.

I had a request for a home visit on Sunday morning from a client whose dog I'd never seen before. They insisted it was having seizures and bit her whenever she tried to pick it up. I quoted for the visit (£160) and agreed to set off in 15 mins when I'd finished with my current patient. The owner seemed grateful.

They rang back 10mins later, saying that they had now decided to take the dog to 'their usual vet' and no longer needed a visit at all. She was not embarrassed, apologetic or in any way concerned about this. 5 more mins and I'd have set off...and been uncontactable. Do you think she'd have worried that I'd had a wasted journey?

Clients have changed....they feel 'entitled' to ask for whatever they want, whenever they want it. (Obviously some geographical areas worse than others). Unless we draw a line, we'd be doing boosters and EAG at 2am.

RE: Am I being fair?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:18:20 GMT

[quote user="rachaelyost"]I am happy to work longer than the normal hours for genuine reasons-ie emergencies. Where I find I, and other colleagues, get annoyed is when reception squeeze an extra booster in at the end of the day or fail to ask how long a problem has been going on and when you should be at home you find the condition has been going on for weeks or months could wait until the next day. This is simply down to training staff well[/quote]

What I can't reconcile is the certain knowledge that the numbers now are much less than "back in the day". [Someone sent me a PM saying that there was real drama if more than 2 cat spays were booked in for the same morning...]

Where does the time go? What is the difference in procedure? Are the end results any better?

I believe that once a client decides the animal needs seeing [usually late in the day!] they then want it seen immediately, or sooner, not for any medical reason but simply 'cos they have decided. If you turn a booster away 5 minutes before closing time most clients may just ring another practice, and certainly won't ring you next time, as you refused the last time!

Fine "back-in-the-day" 'cos the other practice would be some distance away; not now though! So the practice has lost a good/bad/many petted client for ever.

These days I don't think anyone can afford to lose even one.