Illegal Dog? What do I do?

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:12:00 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Honestly, I'd love to do this. However, we are a new practice (only open a year) and I would prefer not to have any negative press. Also I don't make the final decision; it's my bosses that do that.[/quote]One of the benefits of being sole-charge and near enough to retirement that I can pick and choose, albeit it's always been my attitude, my sanity and self-respect has always come before making money. I know I might sound a bit hypocritical with my posts about the passports I've been issuing but that started as a favour for another vet and is under close review.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:54:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]I really hope once I tell her the passports are being reported she'll go somewhere else,[/quote]I would already have told her that I am unable to work with her and given her the sack or more likely I'd have been so rude she'd have gone of her own accord. I'm sure there is an unscrupulous cheap vet somewhere near that will want her, if not there are several around me I could share! I wouldn't be surprised if she has previous somewhere else anyway.

[/quote]

Honestly, I'd love to do this. However, we are a new practice (only open a year) and I would prefer not to have any negative press. Also I don't make the final decision; it's my bosses that do that.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:27:54 GMT

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:15:37 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] ocular and nasal discharge [/quote] + pyrexia = distemper?

[/quote]

This is my concern. A second dog in the house has also come down with the same symptoms.

Did I mention the woman has no money? To pay for the first dog's meds she scrounged off a local charity, who rang up and paid over the phone. Makes me sick.

I really hope once I tell her the passports are being reported she'll go somewhere else, yes they are the kind of clients you don't want. I suspect she only came to me because I'm next door to an RSPCA rehoming centre and she assumed that I was an RSPCA vet. Happens a lot unfortunately.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:59:22 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]has the pup had dressings on its ears for 4 months? [/quote] Oh. I had a look on VIN, since the Americans seem quite keen on Dobies that look....not quite as nature intended. Apparently they tape up the ears for several weeks after cropping, and if the ears won't stand "correctly" some people will put various types of supports on them for up to six months post surgery. Google "wolf rack ear crop" for some images.

My search turned up reams on how to fix failed ear crops (broken cartilage seems to be a well recognised complication), including scarifying ear cartilage with a bone pin to create scar tissue at strategic sites, anchoring suture material in the muscle on the top of the head or the base of the cartilage on the cosmetically better ear then tunnelling subcutaneously across the top of the head and up to take a bite high up on the cartilage of the ear that's still floppy, and various other endeavours that seem really rather loosely related to ensuring the welfare of animals committed to one's care.

Because they are often done with the breeder then shipped to the new owner as a work in progress, vets often have to deal with the aftermath of crops done by somebody else, and have to deal with owners who come in demanding a cosmetic result as well as a comfortable one, even if the second vet does not do ear crops themselves. I am glad it's illegal here.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:07:02 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]my misunderstanding, i had thought she was bringing in more than one at a time, my apologies[/quote]No apology needed I'm the first to judge someone I don't think is conforming to my high standards, 2 is the most she has brought in, she is actually a nice person and its only been 3-4 times. I do feel uneasy and I'm monitoring the situation closely and if I feel far out of my comfort zone I'll tell her to take a hike.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

emma o'connor — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:32:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] we're only talking about individual animals, not litters of pups/kittens[/quote]

my misunderstanding, i had thought she was brining in more than one at a time, my apologies

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:08:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]I saw an 8 month old FE Doberman [/quote][quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Told me she'd had the pup from 4 months old [/quote][quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Dog still has dressings on it's ears[/quote] So, has the pup had dressings on its ears for 4 months? Or did the owner live in Bulgaria/France/ Ruritania, acquire a 4 month old pup, get its ears cropped at 7 1/2 months then move to the UK with the dog?

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] ocular and nasal discharge [/quote] + pyrexia = distemper?

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:52:41 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]but surely it is our responsibility to refuse to do this, and stop encouraging such behaviour by clients/breeders/dealers.[/quote]Firstly I'm not aware of what the import requirements of the countries these animals are going to are, they may just require the passport even if they are for sale, no-one is going to stop them leaving the UK, they don't want to know so long as they have a passport, and we know half the time they don't check those either.

Secondly this person is not my client she is only coming for the passports and we're only talking about individual animals, not litters of pups/kittens. I have no breeder clients for the very reasons you suggest, I won't put up with their behaviour. I am uneasy about it and if I considered these animals were at risk or unhealthy I would not be playing ball don't worry.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

emma o'connor — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:27:59 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]But we have acquired a client/breeder/dealer who normally uses a dodgy local vet for cheap vaccines and all the other dodgy stuff but he can't issue passports. He 'refers' her to me and she is open about the fact the kittens and puppies are going to be exported and asked me to leave the owner section blank or enter the 'new' owner's details. I am adamant that I enter her details or she doesn't get the passport. What happens after that is not my responsibility if the authorities then allow her to export these animals without the correct certification that is their problem not mine.[/quote]

but surely it is our responsibility to refuse to do this, and stop encouraging such behaviour by clients/breeders/dealers.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:40:47 GMT

New owners simply fill in the next box down on the owners page!

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:38:03 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]'breeder' in Whitby imports these puppies over from Europe all the time[/quote]

The PETS scheme is not for commercial imports, but is widely abused for such

[/quote]We're surrounded by them and they are regularly reported to trading standards. But we have acquired a client/breeder/dealer who normally uses a dodgy local vet for cheap vaccines and all the other dodgy stuff but he can't issue passports. He 'refers' her to me and she is open about the fact the kittens and puppies are going to be exported and asked me to leave the owner section blank or enter the 'new' owner's details. I am adamant that I enter her details or she doesn't get the passport. What happens after that is not my responsibility if the authorities then allow her to export these animals without the correct certification that is their problem not mine.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:50:51 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]'breeder' in Whitby imports these puppies over from Europe all the time[/quote]

The PETS scheme is not for commercial imports, but is widely abused for such

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:52:43 GMT

PETS travel scheme is only for non-commercial movement of pets. The clue is in the title. If someone is bringing in puppies for trade they require proper paperwork for that purpose.

Report it to trading standards. You do not want this type of client, nor do you want the importer. Let them find a vet that does not give a toss. There are plenty around!

The vet could have just filled in the owners details rather than issue a new book unless it was issued after the date the new passports types had to be used. That was the end of December last year!

The owner should be pissed off with the dealer, not yo!

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:35:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"] if we contact Trading Standards we will have to inform the owners, which I'm sure will go down well. Second dog has become unwell with similar symptoms and owner can't believe she has to pay another consult fee [/quote]Hopefully it will go down like a ton of bricks and they'll go somewhere else! This sounds like the client I'd be glad to be rid of, but I'd still like to have the satisfaction of seeing them get their comeuppence if it is dodgy.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:19:19 GMT

Defra have said a second passport wasn't needed. owner details on bulgarian passport are blank, on French passport it has 'breeders' details. Bloke at Carlisle thought this might be the importer getting around having to pay for import certificates rather than passports. Recommended contacting Trading Standards.

I've passed this one up to be discussed with my bosses - if we contact Trading Standards we will have to inform the owners, which I'm sure will go down well. Second dog has become unwell with similar symptoms and owner can't believe she has to pay another consult fee when Dr. Google says it's just Kennel Cough, because they get an ocular and nasal discharge with kennel cough (trach pince -ve on exam though... ahem). I'm just a money grabbing git of course.

Dodgy, dodgy, dodgy.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:10:26 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]sounds like they bought it of the dealer in the UK, meaning the puppy was imported for the purpose of selling it, which is not what the passport scheme is for. In that case it needs a proper import/export certificate. [/quote]That is not our concern though if immigration were happy.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Apparently needed a second passport because the one from Bulgaria was an old-style one,[/quote]That is rubbish, the old passport is fine it does not need to be replaced just updated when necessary. But I would still pass it by DEFRA/APLA.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:43:20 GMT

Apparently needed a second passport because the one from Bulgaria was an old-style one, and needed to be replaced by a new style one, so a vet from Calais was rung. Still not sitting right with me.

So... consensus is I ring Defra still?

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Sammy82 — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:38:26 GMT

Why did the French vet give it a new passport? And if the rabies vaccine was only valid from the 6th, how could he travel to France on the 5th? Ok that is probably a problem for the French authorities rather than us as by the time he came here the vaccine was valid. I think it still sounds dodgy and I think I would give Defra a ring about it. You mention the "breeder" (puppy dealer). The passport is only for pet travel, so if the present owner's bought him in Bulgaria and travelled with him it is legal, but it sounds like they bought it of the dealer in the UK, meaning the puppy was imported for the purpose of selling it, which is not what the passport scheme is for. In that case it needs a proper import/export certificate.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 09:15:16 GMT

Ok, had a look at the photocopies of the passports. One from Bulgaria, one from France (Calais). Chip numbers match, the French vet has just re-written the rabies vaccine details given in Bulgaria in the French passport. Dog was over 12 weeks when it had it's rabies jab.

French passport has the worming treatment signed (by the french vet) as being given on 5/6/15, but passport was only issued on 7/6/15. Rabies vaccine was valid from 6/6/15 according to the French passport, dog had a clinical exam by a vet in Bulgaria as fit to travel on 5/6/15. So timings seem ok, unless they've been fiddled.

We've done a bit of digging, turns out the 'breeder' in Whitby imports these puppies over from Europe all the time. Certainly not ethical and I don't like it one bit, but it appears to be legal unfortunately. Only other option is to forward these photocopies on to Carlisle and see what they say.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:35:23 GMT

Hear hear Evelyn

Wynne

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Sammy82 — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:16:54 GMT

I am totally anti-docking but this thread was about legality. Perfectly fine to tell the owner that you as a vet disapprove of docking, but there is nothing illegal if it was done legally abroad.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:14:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Oh, the irony.[/quote]Evelyn, if you're trying to take us where I think you are, if I recall correctly it didn't end well the last time we followed this path.[/quote]

I'm not trying to take us anywhere. I'm trying to head you off.

Back to the OP. I think if anyone turned up at my surgery with a dog which they had deliberately obtained, illegally or legally, with its ears cropped, it would definitely not end well.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:06:19 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"] The obvious difference in my probably badly chosen example is that the dog didn't consent to have it's ears or tail chopped off. But I thought the OP's question/concern was about the legality and not the morality of the situation. [/quote]You're right it was a badly chosen example, I think mine might have been more apt. But there is a moral question over docking/cropping, it is the very immorality that makes it illegal.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Oh, the irony.[/quote]Evelyn, if you're trying to take us where I think you are, if I recall correctly it didn't end well the last time we followed this path.

RE: Illegal Dog? What do I do?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:50:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]How can you compare an act of mutilation without the consent of the victim to a woman's basic human right?[/quote]

Oh, the irony.