Court Report Writing

RE: Court Report Writing

Andrew Mellor — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:35:15 GMT

Rcvs guidelines are very good on the differences between statement of fact. Expert witness etc etc used it recently when in court for rspca 2 days of frustration and the owner got dog back as the court thought he was guilty of causing suffering but removkng his companion was disproportionate to the dogs suffering. Anyway +1for VDS if this is your first time. Even if you dont proceed it is worth seeing what they would advise.

RE: Court Report Writing

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Oct 2015 09:25:38 GMT

Stuff and nonsense!

None of the discussion is involving the actual details of the case. We are talking about the process not the evidence.

Commenting is therefore perfectly legal, professional and relevant!

RE: Court Report Writing

Julie Innes — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:19:34 GMT

Sorry guys, I didn't realise , have deleted the post.

RE: Court Report Writing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:57:50 GMT

This is now "sub judice" so, to avoid damaging the prosecution case,please, please please everybody - no more comments.

Wynne

RE: Court Report Writing

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:19:47 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I think I will be a witness of fact [/quote]

Be careful, be very careful. The SSPCA could have sent two inspectors or asked an independent member of the public along if all they needed was a witness of fact. You were called because you are a veterinary surgeon and you will be heard in court as a veterinary surgeon. You will be expected to interpret and explain the facts. What's more, if you fail to interpret and explain the facts when asked, you will be doing the SSPCA a disservice.

Bear in mind as well that if the defence retains a veterinary surgeon, they might have already read what is written above and while I have considerable sympathy with what you say, I can also imagine how those words could be used against you by an unscrupulous and nastily articulate lawyer.

Most of these cases go through the lower courts "on the nod" but occasionally, they are defended and they can get very unpleasant.

RE: Court Report Writing

Julie Innes — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:16:13 GMT

Thanks, Iain!

RE: Court Report Writing

Iain Richards — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:32:35 GMT

Julie - it depends if you are a witness of fact or an expert witness. If the latter you have to give an impartial view, regardless of who pays you (as Malcolm says, don't do it for free). Where vets have come unstuck is when one side alleges that the view of the witness is not impartial. Hence suggesting you speak to the VDS.

Iain

RE: Court Report Writing

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:00:37 GMT

Interesting discussion. Not sure I agree completely with everything that has been said.

Over the years I have done a moderate amount of report writing and occasional court (or similar) work and on the back of that I have come to a few conclusions:

- Make sure you are being properly paid - this stuff tends to eat up time and you need to agree a sensible fee from the outset bearing in mind that you may become obliged to attend a hearing at a time not necessarily convenient to you.

- More than a "statement of fact" is required. As a veterinary surgeon, you will be expected to interpret and explain the meanings of those facts to a group of people, many of whom will be intelligent and well-informed but lack the specific expertise of a veterinary surgeon.

- The lawyers will certainly try and pick holes in what you say - ours is an adversarial legal system and that is their job.

- Practice "That would be speculation" or "I couldn't comment on that" and any other bon mots all you like but bear in mind that the lawyers will have heard it all before and won't be impressed, nor will they be deflected from their questioning. Unless you are absolutely sure that you won't just come across as a bit of a clever dick (or worse!!) then you should bite your tongue.

- Don't be surprised to come across another veterinary surgeon playing for the other side and make sure that you remain well aware of what bits of the case you can discuss and with whom.

- Don't be terribly surprised or personally affronted if the evidence, when fully revealed, shows that the nice chap who instructed you turns out to be less honest and less worthy than you had first thought.

- and that takes us back to the start..... make sure you charge properly. Being taken advantage of is bad enough but it is altogether worse if you are subsidising the exercise.

RE: Court Report Writing

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:44:02 GMT

VDS are always a good port of call for anything like this! Another phrase to practice is 'that would be speculation'!

RE: Court Report Writing

Julie Innes — Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:14:55 GMT

defininitely agree with the others here! If you do get involved, go back to the RCVS principles of certification and speak to the VDS. You can be sure the opposing lawyer will try to pick holes in your statement and get you to say things you don't intend/ mean, as will your client's lawyer. So definitely speak to the VDS and practice saying " I couldn't comment on that!"

As an aside, I am involved in a case for the SSPCA- hadn't really thought about contacting VDS, but maybe I should (although the defendant is not a client of mine, does that make a difference??)

RE: Court Report Writing

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:57:31 GMT

I agree with Michael - write a 'statement of facts' if you feel it is appropriate. If not another option might be to pass on the clinical notes but none of this without talking to VDS.

If you do agree to anything be prepared to be asked to give evidence in court!

You are a professional person so state facts and educated opinions only!

If in doubt, don't!!

RE: Court Report Writing

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:02:41 GMT

I don't know the full facts - such as what sort of court proceedings for starters - but I'd need far more details before getting involved.

If you do get involved,then only write what you can absolutely prove beyond reasonable doubt - otherwise you might find yourself a co-defendant in a fraud case. Ask VDS - giving them all the details

Wynne

RE: Court Report Writing

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 22:45:39 GMT

It would depend on the context. If a client was deserving of defence then I would likely do it (as long as I agreed they were in the right). I would charge for doing it. If they want you to support a prosecution then tell them to find a person who specialises in that type of work.

I've done things in the past for things like trading standards with downer cows - under appropriate treatment etc. I agree that you should run past VDS first.

I couldn't just abandon a client who was deserving of support. Limiting to a simple statement of facts.

RE: Court Report Writing

grumpyoldman — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 22:26:28 GMT

Sounds like some breeder has sold a dud ,nothing unusual there ,then gets dragged into court , does not want to pay for an expert appointed by the court but needs you to effectively act as a free one. Do not touch it with a barge pole, at the very least they will probably waste a day of your time without paying for it , and worse still it could be adjourned while the judge deliberates ,picks his nose,has a scratch and orders more reports from real experts who are getting paid.

So thanks but no thanks .

RE: Court Report Writing

Iain Richards — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 22:16:03 GMT

Catriona's advice is very sound. Go nowhere near this without VDS help, then go no where near it anyway!

Iain

RE: Court Report Writing

John Wessels — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 21:43:47 GMT

Stay clear from courts...

RE: Court Report Writing

Catriona MacIntyre — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 21:37:51 GMT

I think it would be very useful to have a chat with them (ETA... VDS) before you embark upon this.

I have to admit my understanding of the line between professional witness and expert witness is a little hazy, but I think it's important just to check what you're covered for, and VDS are really good with advice or content and wording. It might help settle things in your mind a little too.

RE: Court Report Writing

skatealexia — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 21:28:28 GMT

Yes I am :)

RE: Court Report Writing

Catriona MacIntyre — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 21:27:48 GMT

Hi SkateAlexia

Are you a VDS member?