SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:27:44 GMT

[quote user="nikki"] I would absolutely love to do a split shift - 2-3hrs in the middle of the day would give me enough time to do my horse in daylight which is a rarity in winter.[/quote]

I would tend to agree.

I'm doing a locum at the moment in a 2 vet practice where the rota involves either an afternoon or evening surgery. If working the evening which is 5.30 - 7.30pm (8pm Mon and Fri) one is free from 12 - 12.30 until 5.30 without being on call. This is great during winter months as it is possible to do something useful with the time during daylight - I usually go cycling.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:23:44 GMT

Well... this isn't going to be very representative with only 100ish votes.

If any of you want to vote I believe today is the last date.

Thanks

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

J G Wray — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:02:33 GMT

[quote user="nikki"]

I didn't say they should agree with me. I just said they don't. It's not up for discussion in our practice anyway so irrelevant.

[/quote]

To borrow a lyric...."What you accept, expect"

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

nikki — Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:49:26 GMT

I didn't say they should agree with me. I just said they don't. It's not up for discussion in our practice anyway so irrelevant.[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="nikki"]

I would absolutely love to do a split shift - 2-3hrs in the middle of the day would give me enough time to do my horse in daylight which is a rarity in winter. The others don't agree with me though.

[/quote]

Well, what's in it for them?

[/quote]

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Julie Innes — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:57:18 GMT

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the corporates are coming, but I don't worry about it. They will take all those clients who just want cheap prices over everything else, and I am happy to hand them over! As a small practice, our biggest selling point is that we know most of our regular clients really well, and most like the fact that they see the same 2 vets every time, we don't push food or other products. We are the exact opposite of the corporates, really, so I have no intentions of competing with them. It's a completely different business model. If we go bankrupt I guess I'll just have to do something else instead! I just couldn't enjoy vetting if I had to get all cutthroat about it.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

J G Wray — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:01:09 GMT

[quote user="nikki"]

I would absolutely love to do a split shift - 2-3hrs in the middle of the day would give me enough time to do my horse in daylight which is a rarity in winter. The others don't agree with me though.

[/quote]

Well, what's in it for them?

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

nikki — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 20:53:28 GMT

We have quite a big hospital. Usually 2 or 3 vets consulting in the morning, 2 out the back doing in-patients and ops with the main one not starting consults until 4.30pm so often still operating at 3pm. Then there are 3 vets consulting between 4.30pm and 6.30pm and one until 8pm. We have everyone on a 9am to 6.30pm shift except one a half day who does 8.30am to 12.30pm and one late shift from 11am to 8.30pm.

What bugs me with the 6.30pm finish is our hours are worked out on this 9am to 6.30pm basis but the last appointment is at 6.20pm which after starting consulting at 4.30pm and allowing for the complicated, demanding clients we seem to attract and the inevitable late ones mean the chances of getting away before 7pm are slim. So normally we work 9am to 7pm and are lucky to get a lunch break which gets very wearing. I would absolutely love to do a split shift - 2-3hrs in the middle of the day would give me enough time to do my horse in daylight which is a rarity in winter. The others don't agree with me though.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:19:57 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I have my own practice, 2 vets, 3000 + clients.[/quote]

Don't worry, Vets'r'us, VetsToNight and 24hourVET are negotiating for the closed Tesco just down the road so your problem may be over sooner than you think.

Your address is on "Grocer Weekly", with my phone number, asking for maximum bids for your postcode [away with ethics I say]

Your practice and yourself must be bloody good [as I've said before and got hammered]

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Julie Innes — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 13:02:47 GMT

I'm a little surprised by how hard most of you still work!! I have my own practice, 2 vets, 3000 + clients. We recently closed our client list as we were getting ridiculously busy. I decided I was happier making sure we maintained our good reputation by being able to give good service to the clients we had, rather than trying to pack in more. We also needs a life!

We admit ops 8.30-9.00, one of us consults 9.30-12, while the other operates, then 1-2.30pm. The person who does 1-2.30 finishes at 2.30 (ish!), and the other starts back and consults 3-6pm. Last apt is 5.50pm. I have a half day on a Thursday, an early finish (2.30) on a Monday, and my colleague has a half day on Wednesday. We work alternate Saturdays, 9-12. Funnily enough, I find the appointments during the day are more popular than late evening ones. I guess there are lots of people who don't work 9-5/ work from home/ job share, and would rather get things done during the day. I guess it depends how much you value money over time off!

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:08:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]You all seem on a spiral to the bottom and none of you want to look outside what can be done. I still think better communication with the neighbours is of universal benefit - even if you don't use it as a means of opening hours fixing![/quote]

Yeah, don't knock it until you've tried!

Trouble is, particularly with the corporates, you aren't dealing vet to vet, eyeball to eyeball, the corporates would send their accountant and PR consultant both of whom had been instructed to say "**** off", and say "we cooperated, we sent 2 senior people to the meeting".

Eyeball to eyeball, with a hand shake and a "What happened to that cow of a Mrs X who had that.....?" is the only way and it won't happen these days.

Do you think Waitrose would agree with Aldi to change their hours or anything?......

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:55:01 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]there's 5 SA practices in our town (25.000):[/quote] etc.

How times change!

When I first started on my own in North London in 1968:

There were only 4 practices in a catchment area of, say, 2 million and one was "inactive" and another was a veterinary practitioner who wasn't too bad and had a very good bedside manner.

2. One of us, BS, organised a sort of fee meeting over the phone and I persuaded my nearest competitor to put up his fees, which he did.... [amazing differences between practices and usually no pattern at all]

3. Canvassing or client stealing: That could be grounds for a claim for compensation but you have to show loss and evidence is needed and it is not often successful. Happened back in the day in the most correct of areas and with people who became very successful and respected. I was warned off very directly by a noted nearby SA vet of dog show fame....

The RCVS used to dodge any sort of ethical transgression.

4. Funnily enough my nearest competitor sorted out my disasters and vice versa [although TH and BT did more for me than I did for them...] and we never had a cross word, I used to call in and see them.

Pressure of competition seems to have changed that!

The norm for assistants was a half day during the week [as did the shops] Waste of time off, so we closed one surgery on a Friday night piggybacked it to the nearest branch and the vets had alternate 3 day weekends which they appreciated. clients seemed to cope and the phones were redirected etc.

Long weekends off are the best perk for staff ever; times and rotas seem suddenly to work!

My previous job had a half day mid-week and I ended up doing visits for my colleague who never managed to get finished on his half-day!

No routine ops on Friday; emergencies redirected; one mid-day consults, time to fit in; everyone happy.

Local RSPCA head vet, Tony Self, was, I think, the first to suggest a night rota and it worked pretty well. RVC started a night service by expensive subscription which wasn't popular, as they were charging a fortune and always seemed to denigrate those avaricious private vets, as well as disagreeing with everything we'd said.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Aurelia Verdin — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:38:07 GMT

We routinely do 8.45-6pm, with one vet doing consults till 7pm. We try to share it around so that you only get one 7pm finish in a week, tho sometimes that falls down and you end up with more. The general plan is that the vet who is on call finishes consults by 5pm so they are free to deal with emergencies or to get an early supper, one vet consults till 7pm and the rest finish at 6pm. We get a half day off a week, mine is normally on a Tues pm which I find much better than a morning off, never managed to get anything done in the morning. With catching up with labs/phone calls we are all often here later than the last consulting slot.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

J G Wray — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:20:33 GMT

Last Friday, my fulltime GP brother-in-law made it home at 9 pm. He finished at 6 pm and then reviewed the blood results for 128 patients. This is not unusual. He thinks it's bonkers and is prepared to make a salary sacrifice to reduce his hours.

Whatever your professional occupation it is probably as well to hang on to your time and financial reward loosely if you want to change any thing

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Sammy82 — Mon, 12 Oct 2015 00:51:09 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

I'm only a lowly equine vet, but is it beyond the wit of SA practices to have half the vets working, say, 8-5, and the other half 10-7 so as to cater for both clients who need to fit drop-off/collection and consultations around work, and vets who will burn out if working late every night? Vets could either stay on one shift permanently, or swap between shifts weekly/fortnightly, depending on preference/child care arrangements etc.?

I know if it were an option I would happily start work even as early as 6am every day so I could finish at 3pm, and I'm sure that there are others who would prefer the reverse.

[/quote]

That's exactly how our rota works, early vet 8am-4pm, late vet 12noon-8pm +on call. This allows early vet to have lunch once ops finished.You also get 4 undisturbed hours for breakfast in peace after a night on call, unless working early the next day. Shifts are equally shared but could just as well be worked around preferences if one vet prefers early starts and ops, and another consults. Consults are usually busy 12-2 and 6-7, sometimes in the morning but not that often. Nurses do most of the admissions.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:18:06 GMT

there's 5 SA practices in our town (25.000):

1. frequently makes remarks about how crap all the others are, leaves out no opportunity to discredit others

2. in it for the money, when we had that kind of meeting we were going over prices, she kept telling us how much more she charged than we and we should do so as well - found out very soon she not even charged half of what she told us and wanted us to charge - bad intentions spring to mind

3. Left practice in neighboring town after negotiations to become a partner failed. Wrote letters to all customers telling them she will be leaving, would they want to go with her? Opened up as close as possible to the old place, lowest fares possible, opening hours when others are closed.

4. Get along well, help with cases, shortages of drugs and so on.

I really don't see how any kind of get together and agree on opening hours/prices/whatever would work with this bunch. Town is suburb of big city, plenty of vets very close by there as well.

This is how things are in the city....

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:55:51 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I still think better communication with the neighbours is of universal benefit -

[/quote]

I would love to be as left wing as you Michael But that's not how business competition works. Your neighbour will try to undercut you and open when you're close, and it will disguise this as customer satisfaction. It might be sad, but that's how it is.

Regarding 'trying', my experience in urban areas is actually quite the opposite to what you're suggesting. I once worked in a practice where they all have an agreement to share OOH... some years and bad blood later, they all use an OOH supplier... more years, more blood, a branch of a corporate opens 1/2 mile from you and you feel the new receptionist you just hired is there to fax histories to the new practice for those owners who 'just want to try' the lower vaccination fee... All of course, advertised as customer benefit, nothing to do with competition.

And guess what? I'm was (and am) an employee, can't even think how my employer was feeling about this back then.

*Edit* When I was a self-employed locum I worked all over the country and the trend seem to be the same in a lot of locations. Of course, I'm only talking from my little subjective experience.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:31:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I know you are trying to offer constructive advice - but your client base is very different to that in an urban environment. People don't simply choose to attend at 6pm (why would they?) ...they really are at work during the day![/quote]

Then why can't our employees make bloody doctors and dentist appointments when they are off or on half days!!!!!!!

I still think my point stands - IF you couldn't see a vet after work then you'd find a way to get there. If another practice opened up down the road and offered evening appointments, then we would have to. I don't want to.

You all seem on a spiral to the bottom and none of you want to look outside what can be done. I still think better communication with the neighbours is of universal benefit - even if you don't use it as a means of opening hours fixing!

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:19:33 GMT

Michael - I do think location has more impact than you're giving credit for.

For example, my sister lives in a rural part of North Yorkshire. In her children's class, very few families have 2 parents working. Many are farmers etc. She and my brother-in-law both work full time (teachers) and her children have mentioned that most of their friends parents are there for all school events etc. The before and after school clubs are very quiet.

Compare that with my children's school - where very few children are collected at 3.30, with most going into the after school club. School events (during the day) are poorly attended - and not due to lack of interest.

I know you are trying to offer constructive advice - but your client base is very different to that in an urban environment. People don't simply choose to attend at 6pm (why would they?) ...they really are at work during the day!

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 13:11:08 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

I'm not saying you're crazy, but are you really serious?

Mix of corporates, traditional practices, new start ups all looking for a niche.

[/quote]

We are a group of mixed practices competing over the same work. We all do differing amounts of large animal work and that is a declining base (numbers of farmers anyway). I'm not sure I thought it would work, but it does.

People have to leave their baggage at the door (and I'm not going into detail on here, but believe me there was baggage!).

Carry on moaning and don't do anything about it. No skin off my nose!

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Kate Richardson — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 11:59:11 GMT

I've also posted this in the Compassion-Burn out thread, maybe I should start a new one- but what sort of practices lead to burn out more frequently- I get the impression it is 100% Small Animal practices, possibly more town/city based?

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:58:35 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Don't tell me it's crazy unless you've done it and failed[/quote]

I'm not saying you're crazy, but are you really serious?

Mix of corporates, traditional practices, new start ups all looking for a niche.

I had an 'interview' a few years ago asking if I'd do late evening surgeries - no thank you, but they have found someone

I may be a locum and admit I don't have a handle on financial matters like directors/partners do, but what I do think that getting everyone together and agreeing to shut at 1830 is a bit...... guess the 3 practices that run an OOH service would like the idea though!!

Neil

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:47:52 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I nearly died laughing at this one Michael. Come to Bristol, 52 practices and rising, opening hours getting longer and longer, talk of one opening all W/E and not just 0900-1300 either, Glasgow has a 24/7 clinic coming[/quote]

Has anyone tried getting them all together? We have a cooperative thing with a group of local practices, we meet every month. Put on joint farmer, equine and pet meetings. Run training courses together. Share information. We've lent members of staff when needed. Joint CPD (getting speakers in easier with big group). Drug companies have offered us better terms as a group on some products etc. Share less used bits of equipment.

It works really well. Yes you still get a 'drift' of clients who decide to move, but working together makes us collectively stronger. Don't tell me it's crazy unless you've done it and failed.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:32:09 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Would it be reasonable practices in an area getting together and agreeing not to offer appointments after 6.30? The problem comes when the practice down the road offers them. We are relatively isolated[/quote]

I nearly died laughing at this one Michael. Come to Bristol, 52 practices and rising, opening hours getting longer and longer, talk of one opening all W/E and not just 0900-1300 either, Glasgow has a 24/7 clinic coming

Isolated Practice, this nails it as far as your experience goes!!

Neil

[/quote]

Me too... newest practice opening a couple of years ago, they looked exactly at others opening hours and opened when others were closed, so they do 20:00 on days all the others finish early. I am by no means answering that by expanding my opening hours though and even after a few years things look ok for me.

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:02:23 GMT

Isolated Practice, this nails it as far as your experience goes!!

Neil

RE: SA vet, Is your last appointment at or beyond 6.30pm?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:30:35 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]if people who work (and therefore have money to pay for their pet's health), want to see us at 6.30pm. What can we do other than complying with this request?[/quote]

We have 2 small animal open surgeries - 9.00-9.30 and 2.00-2.30. We offer appointments at other times, but maybe see 1 or 2 animals in an evening (between 5.00-6.00 each week) with the very great majority getting to surgery. It's amazing how many people can escape from work for a bit.

If we had an evening surgery people would come to it, but it would just make the other surgeries quieter and us work later. Would it be reasonable practices in an area getting together and agreeing not to offer appointments after 6.30? The problem comes when the practice down the road offers them. We are relatively isolated.