Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

J G Wray — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 12:32:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]J could = Jesus and G = God, I leave to your imagination what the W = ![/quote]

Playground chant - "Sticks and stones...."

You can do better than that.

Independent practice will survive and thrive if it is resilient and those that are part of these practices are resilient. This does not mean supine and compliant with those who, by their actions, through their words, present a challenge. to General Practice, whether competitor or Regulator. The temerity of the RCVS is a wondrous thing.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:55:34 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I am never sparring with JGW again. He clearly has connections with a higher regulatory body[/quote]well J could = Jesus and G = God, I leave to your imagination what the W = !

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:50:20 GMT

Oooooo...sounds stressful and very annoying. The ceiling problem must be bad too.

(Hope all gets sorted for you!)

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:47:30 GMT

I am never sparring with JGW again , my attic ceiling has just fallen in . He clearly has connections with a higher regulatory body

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:05:35 GMT

Gillian Anthony can't have confused you as much as Jonathan has confused me!

Just how did RCVS bashing get involved,and why?

Anyway, time to start surgery.

Wynne

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:57:22 GMT

Below the line

A consistent repetitive negative viewpoint perpetuating fear and concern

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

J G Wray — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:50:38 GMT

Below the line

Denial and justification.

FOG

Last year's CPD audit - Ms Warman's deployment of Fear to drive compliance as in referral to ProfCon

There were lower levels of compliance this year

This year's CPD audit - Mr Hockey's deployment of Obligation to drive compliance

We'll see how that works

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:11:44 GMT

JGW

You know I served two terms at RCVS . I do not recognise the RCVS you describe and although I love a good debate I am having my house re roofed and have enough adrenaline coursing through my veins so this fish isnt biting today.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:47:23 GMT

Anthony. You've managed to completely confuse me, and make the whole thing more complicated than it was!

I'll give it another go.

We asked the bank for lots of money. They asked for 20% deposit. They didn't care where that money came from, but all we had was a few grand in the bank, and the difference between what we owed on our house and what the house was worth - the equity. Thus, these two things made up their security. I suppose you could say that we paid 20% of the set up costs!

Maybe most 28 year olds are still renting- I don't know. But there's no reason a married vet working in Hull couldn't buy a house!!! As I said, we were wise/lucky- we bought a plot on a new development which ended up becoming a successful development, so we made a few grand when we moved. We didn't, obviously, own "a nice house as security" (which I had always mentioned). We owned a tiny fraction of it!!!

Oh, and there weren't any practice profits for about 2 years, and it wasnt earning us what we had been previously as employees unntil a year or so aftervthat. That was always in our business plan though...we were always realistic.

Anyway, my original point was just to encourage others to give it a go and not be scared of it...not to bore everyone with my life story!!!

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

J G Wray — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:30:54 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]went to HSBC with my Dad as guarantor who had to convince him that I was a suitable candidate and serious " despite being a woman"[/quote]

Purpose

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"] I always preferred the vet work to the management work[/quote]

Purpose

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]my main motivator was clinical freedom ,[/quote]

Autonomy

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]to be my own boss [/quote]

Mastery

P+A+M > Motivation

Our Regulator does not get this. It undermines Purpose, cannot comprehend the concept of Autonomy (perhaps because it is a regulator) and has no interest in how GPVets want or manage to achieve Mastery of being a GPVet.

Instead of getting stuck into these now it is offering a feeble, albeit colourful, distraction in Vet Futures.

Our Regulator undermines Purpose by deploying its toolkit of Fear, Obligation and Guilt, (FOG), distorting vets lives to the point where it is difficult to know whether doing the thing right is doing the right thing.

How long were you at RCVS?

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:47:54 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]How do you know this? How many people do you know who've applied for a loan and been refused?[/quote]

Not many with a nice house as security [which wasn't mentioned] and the means to pay the mortgage via the practice profits!

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:41:01 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]On the contrary, the amount of equity is the only thing that matters - it is the only bit of the house that Gillian owned[/quote]

Read her reply to me, it seems the "equity" was actually a loan to the practice. also secured on the house, a second mortgage.??

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:36:45 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Of course the equity matters[/quote]

Sheeet, crikey, no I didn't; you wouldn't even get your "equity" back??

It wasn't a "deposit" then; it was a business loan used as the house deposit, or have I got it wrong?

Boy, they were better protected than I thought, and in times [usually] of rising house prices.....

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

grumpyoldman — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 17:56:37 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]The branded Corporates, notably Vets4Pets have committed to getting away from the budget end of practice [/quote]

Not sure about that , I got the impression that the purchase of NW surgeons was more about stemming the back flow of surgical cases that jump ship from the shops back to the "proper" vets, and in the process getting their hands on a bigger slice of the insured TPLO/TTA money.

And no your right its usually 20-25% depending upon new toys and CPD .

I do think that the days when you could just bumble along ,do your best and let the money take care of itself are gone. Which is a bit of a shame, but increased fair competition has to be a good thing in the long run. When the V4P things open we have learned to play them at their own game, do what they do ,when they ring for histories contact the client first ,turns out they have mostly just been hijacked while buying a box of smackos in pets at home and did not want to go anywhere else. Also on the flip side only contact them about histories when the clients are already in the waiting room ,that way they cannot ring the client and diss you or offer freebies to stop them going or threaten to void their vaccine for life deal. I did have them once tendering for a c/section on a chihuahua just as I was pulling the last pup out ,and the client wanted me to price match. Its all a bit sad sometimes. I can see why some people do sell up and get disillusioned with these events.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:40:02 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Your equity is irrelevant, the bank would sell the whole house and, depending on your equity, give you the balance back, if any, minus fees..[/quote]

On the contrary, the amount of equity is the only thing that matters - it is the only bit of the house that Gillian owned (and therefore the only bit that was available to the bank for security). The rest of the value of the house belongs to the original mortgage lender and they have "first dibs".

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:23:16 GMT

I bought into a partnership in the eighties and went to HSBC with my Dad as guarantor who had to convince him that I was a suitable candidate and serious " despite being a woman" . My loan was twice the value of my house and the interest rate was well into double figures. There was a year or two when my partner and I made a loss despite working all the hours God sent and each took out less than we paid our VN . It was very scary and very motivating but a different veterinary landscape as all practices were more or less equal when it came to drug buying power etc and if you worked hard and ran your business efficiently you had a good chance of making it. my main motivator was clinical freedom , to be my own boss and i appreciated the right to refuse to dock tails and sack clients. I would think twice nowadays mainly because of the red tape etc . I always preferred the vet work to the management work

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:28:30 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Gillian That sounds really rough. My sympathies. It's hardly the sort of thing anyone would ask for time off for on a regular basis.[/quote]

Don't worry Wynne. I now thank that boss. (Well, maybe not to their face!) It made us make difficult decisions at a tough time but it was the best thing we ever did! (Wow - I sound like JGW - we aren't what life throws at us, but what we do with it!)

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:25:30 GMT

yep- only one house at that point! (I thought having one was was pretty good! )

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Your equity is irrelevant, the bank would sell the whole house and, depending on your equity, give you the balance back, if any, minus fees.....[/quote]

erm...eh? You contradict yourself. Of course the equity matters. Our mortgage lender had 'first dibs', so if they had foreclosed, they would have sold the house and any remaining equity would have gone directly to our business loan provider... that was the deal. Thus only the equity was part of the deposit at that point.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:23:10 GMT

Gillian That sounds really rough. My sympathies. It's hardly the sort of thing anyone would ask for time off for on a regular basis.

Wynne

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:11:02 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Our own mortgage was tied in but there wasn't that much equity in our house when we were 28! [/quote]

Oh dear, so the lender was well secured then: a mortgage on your only? house.

Your equity is irrelevant, the bank would sell the whole house and, depending on your equity, give you the balance back, if any, minus fees.....

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:44:28 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]And no security, at all apart from the deposit[/quote]

That's right. Our own mortgage was tied in but there wasn't that much equity in our house when we were 28!

We were, however, lucky to have bought well, at the right time, and sold our first house after 3 years with a decent profit... we also only spent a couple of grand on our wedding and didn't take expensive holidays and so had saved a few grand. ....hence our ability to pay the deposit for the business loan.

We initially leased the building premises - wouldn't have been able to afford to buy at that point. (As I said, we bought 5 years later when the landlord decided to sell.)

No personal guarantee. Wouldn't have wanted to put that pressure on anyone else.

We were fortunate to have money from a house sale - but we also did it all very early at 28. Most people could save that sum or have more equity in their house within just a few more years.

I should say that this was not in my plan - I didn't have any great ambition to own a practice by 30! It became necessary by having a boss who made it very clear that part time/flexible working was never going to happen. I wanted the freedom to work part-time, bring up kids, and also spend time with my Dad, who got terminal cancer at 52. I was 5 months pregnant, working in a practice 1 1/2 hours drive away from Dad, that had refused me a day's leave to be there when my Dad had a major surgery. (He did in fact have a perioperative cardiac arrest due to blood loss and was subsequently in the ICU for a few weeks.) I managed to get the day off by asking a friend at a local practice to cover me. The boss flatly refused to work his day off. I still had to be back at work the next day though.

I guess that's why I feel for assistants who feel that work gets in the way of living their life. There are some things that won't wait till you retire.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]You were either very special or very lucky, certainly unusual at any time in the last 30 years for a start-up business.[/quote]

How do you know this? How many people do you know who've applied for a loan and been refused?

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:56:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Our bank did. With approx 20% deposit.[/quote]

And no security, at all apart from the deposit?? Not a mortgage on the practice or other premises? Personal guarantee?

You were either very special or very lucky, certainly unusual at any time in the last 30 years for a start-up business.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:16:59 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]HSBC[/quote]

Yep, first port for any vet looking for funding.

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:01:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I expect I will have different priorities in 10 years, but while I am young and keen I want to better myself and build my practice. I would hope once I am in my 40's I could do a bit less. I agree with you there![/quote]

Absolutely. I agree with you...we also worked very hard in our late 20s and early 30ss. All I'm saying is that life doesn't always give you a full quota of time. Don't leave everything till later....not everyone keeps their health, or even live, till then! (Sorry...getting too morbid now, I do apologise.) Plan for tomorrow but live for today!!!

RE: Any hope for privately owned veterinary practices?

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:00:14 GMT

RBS and Lloyds have the reputation for being particularly 'medical' friendly.

They do need to see a good business plan but the money is there!

I suspect most JVC vets would make brilliant practice owners. A few years dealing with their 'partners' will put them in good stead for their own practice. They are likely to find it less work, more money and less stress.

Owning your own practice is to be encouraged not discouraged and working for for rather than with a partner is not much fun. All the risks but fewer rewards.