The perils of pregnancy scanning!

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Niall Taylor — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 06:39:07 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]the royal college of lay scanners[/quote]

Niall

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

grumpyoldman — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:10:19 GMT

We have had them post section accuse us of stealing puppies that were never there after they have been given a number of definite puppies by the lay scanner who is of course always 100% accurate and knows far more about everything than scummy robbing B*****d vets.

we have also had then present for an elective section when they were just fat and having a phantom after the lay scanner "who knows everything " has predicted and guaranteed 6 puppies . I have then referred them to the royal college of lay scanners and advised then to put their thoughts in writing to their professional body, with the receipt for their services, oh no invoice ? all cash was it ? no records ? Umm tough really....unlucky..... well known phrase involving peanuts and monkeys comes to mind .

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:56:44 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

X ray at 7wks +, two views and count the skulls, only way.

[/quote]

But why would you bother?

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Aine Seavers — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:28:52 GMT

Thanks Dagamar,! wondered if you had been lost when yahoo lost the initial evet link, Peter has it up and running again under evet clinical and it is quite active. Finding my feet in this list- cant quite hit it with the full force of my opinions just yet;-)

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Gerry Henry — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:40:15 GMT

X ray at 7wks +, two views and count the skulls, only way.

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Charlotte Marshall — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 00:43:43 GMT

Thing is I have always known you cannot give an accurate idea of numbers and always tell clients that. Hence I have always given a range. although I have underestimated before I think this is the first time my range has been so far out (by 2 pups if you use the bottom figure) overestimating. Perhaps naively, I never considered being accused of keeping pups. It will certainly make me more circumspect in future unless I know the breeder well! What do you all do, literally just say yes or no the animal is pregnant?

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Phil Hyde — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:44:19 GMT

Stealing pups is one of a long list of 'reasons not to pay' for caesarians. Running a busy OOH centre this problem has become so huge that for EVERY caesar we now insist on payment IN FULL, in advance. We have calculated a fee that includes most complications. Take it or leave it. Almost everyone takes it.

However, the idea of stealing pups may be an alternative to charging up front, after all, my staff don't have enough to do...

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:35:30 GMT

And then, if you radiograph to count numbers, you will be sued - because any abnormal/weak puppy will be the result of you irradiating it. With some breeders we're damned if we do - and damned if we don't.

Wynne

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:28:46 GMT

ooops. Not to be talked into it....

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:28:01 GMT

My remark re the dino wasn't only directed towards the fact that you can't count via scan, but also that you have to learn to be adamant to to be talked into it nonetheless by the breeder ;-)

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Clair Firth — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:24:04 GMT

I don't think you have to be a DinoVet to use X-ray to estimate numbers. I only graduated in Vienna last summer and we were always told that ultrasound is fine for checking pup vitality, but that we should never try to count them! X-ray from 50 days and count the skulls and vertebrae - if it's really important (and it seems to some breeders it is.....they need to get the buyers lined up I suppose)

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 14:34:34 GMT

[quote user="Deborah Anwyl"]

[/quote] exactly what my boss told him!

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Deborah Anwyl — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 12:36:48 GMT

Don't we all love breeders! I once had a new client bulldog breeder come into the practise asking for an elective Caesar but she stated categorically that she needed to be in theatre to film the surgery as it is well known that vets steal puppies and sell them on. After a long day I was not terribly cooperative and swiftly showed her the door. As if vets and nurses don't have enough to do without hand rearing pups to make a few quid. I value my sleep more thanks!

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:58:24 GMT

Back in the day when dairy cattle PDs were all manual it was unusual to be wrong ever. There were some "don't knows" [?pyometron] but if you said "empty" you would be 100% right.

"Run cattle" vets doing PDs often used 2 races, side by side, and both arms and I'm sure someone will recall the vast numbers examined per hour or per day.

A steer was often mixed in with the cows just to make sure the vet knew his job.....

In dairy herds, because of AI, calving date would be pretty accurate.

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:15:03 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Is this a product of ewe anatomy (rumen?), larger foetal size, or just lower 'litter' numbers? Or is it that these guys do it full time at that time of year and have just got very good at it?[/quote]

Think it's the latter. Compare it to scannign cattle - you've got the people doing it 3-4 times a week who just have to put a little finger inside and can give an accurate calving date, to those who do it once in a blue moon and take 10 mins per cow up to their shoulders.

(I'd be one of the latter group).

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Wren — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:51:15 GMT

I was also told never to give a number, but am interested in this cf. ewe scanning. I have never done much of either, but certainly found the lay ewe scanners to be highly accurate with estimating numbers - this is after all the point of scanning ewes, so that they can be fed according to the number of lambs expected. My farmers used to find that they had 3 or 4 wrong out of maybe 500, so around 99% accuracy (maybe our local scanners were particularly good?).

Is this a product of ewe anatomy (rumen?), larger foetal size, or just lower 'litter' numbers? Or is it that these guys do it full time at that time of year and have just got very good at it?

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

ChrisBVSc — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:24:46 GMT

Agree do not try to give estimates of numbers, I was told this at college and also by the specialist who ran the ultrasound course I went on a couple of years ago. At least there should be plenty of info out there you can show the owner to prove the point that counting puppies with a scanner is not very accurate. There's a nice little paragraph about it in the BSAVA ultrasonography book if you have it.

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

James Laidlaw — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:22:56 GMT

I'm not quite a Dino yet, but graduated in '03 and we were always told never to estimate numbers during ultrasound. Too many difficulties in being accurate. Like trying to give an age for an animal with all its adult teeth in place...

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:22:07 GMT

I always tell them it is only an estimate and did state that it was particularly difficult at such a late stage. Actually I am usually pretty close with my estimates when I scan at 4 weeks. I always state you cannot say exactly how many there are.

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:02:51 GMT

Ah the benefits of being a dino... I've learned never to give any estimates on number of pups while scanning. I always tell them the only way to do this is by x-ray up from day 50. (Although I missed one the other day, only saw 11 on x-ray and 12 came out...oooops) (By the way, good to see you here Aine, missed you on the other list, not that I had been active anymore but still...)

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Aine Seavers — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 01:46:56 GMT

One poster on another list spoke of having a video recording all his consults etc so when spurious claims made then quickly dealt with, An extreme way to respond but an effective one for his clientele it would appear. We dont have video in the consult but we do on our kennels so we can keep patients under constant surveillance without disturbing them continually and we do now tend to photograph or phone video any odd happenings or discoveries during surgerg. we find it interesting and often share with less sensitive stomach owners- keeps them on side and stops any negative rumblings. But you cant win them all, which is why in my own practice we fire clients like this- send them a nice note saying we cant be their vets anymore, please find enclosed a copy of your medical records and best wishes for your new relationship with your new vet. Makes the clinic a much nicer place to be,

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

niamhjl — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 22:48:10 GMT

I have also been accused by a client of "stealing" pups - this one was a jrt who had been scanned early in pregnancy by a non vet and declared to be having a large litter - she presented to our practice for the first time in labour and needed a Caesarian to remove one very large, very stuck, very dead pup... Owner refused to accept that there was only one pup in there and it ended up in an rcvs complaint! (Thankfully didn't get very far) but totally know the "why do I do this" feeling that comes with these kind of people!

RE: The perils of pregnancy scanning!

Niall Taylor — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 22:23:30 GMT

With pug pups selling on the intyweb for anything between £1,000 and £1,700 I don't think he should have too much trouble paying for the caesar.

As for accusing you of keeping the pups - hilarious!!! That would have made my day, not spoiled it.

Let's hope the rest of the family make his life a misery for a while.

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]Sometimes I wonder why I do this job.[/quote]

Because the view is wonderful from the moral high-ground.! He breeds a bitch notorious for having small litter sizes and requiring caesareans then complains because he gets a small litter size and has to have a caesarean - you couldn't make it up

Chin up.

Niall