How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 10:04:43 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]I changed my approach to asking what they thought the options were, or what tests were appropriate, ie trying to get them to make the effort[/quote]

I do this when I get a phone call during the day asking what to do with cases (I'm at a quieter branch so all pleas for help are directed my way). Rather than give them the answer I'll ask further questions, make them work it out in their head. At the end of the conversation I'll just say 'well there you go, you knew what to do all along' and most people then feel more confident, and the frequency of questions reduces.

Though I have done that in the past, they've worked everything out themselves, but I still have to tell them what to do!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

grumpyoldman — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 21:58:05 GMT

I think case discussion s by and large a good thing ,so is research ,if your practice has a desk top VIN log in that can be very useful. What can be extremely irritating and annoying particularly to the next newest graduate up the food chain are new graduates who behave like ,ask-holes. That is wander about canvassing opinion ,then look something up somewhere obscure, and run up a blind alley with a case by trying to be original.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Chris Milligan — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 20:03:50 GMT

I agree with this - I think case discussion is essential to make sure mistakes don't get made or clients don't get pushed into restrictive treatment options but there definitely comes a point when vets need to take responsibility and actually commit to a decision and read around their cases and - most importantly - change their methods when the answer (or an answer) contradicts their original advice.

I hope I'm not too guilty of it myself but I've seen plenty of vets of all ages (naturally many are new grads but an alarming number are older or as Claire says above part timers or just people who've given up the effort) doing a minimum of thinking and passing the case over to a more enthusiastic colleague.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Rob Davis — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:53:16 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"] The important thing for me is to try and understand personalities...some vets develop this behaviour in vet school.......parasitising information from fellow students instead of digging for it themselves......and subconsciously carry it on into the workplace. These have a tendency to quickly identify "potential hosts" to parasitise where ever they go and work. The problem is that "potential hosts" often discover whats happening when its too late, and weaning off the parasitic becomes an issue.[/quote]

Love this analogy, and have definitely seen this happen!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Utlendigur — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 14:03:45 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".[/quote]

But working out the difference between the level of help and support that they need, as opposed to the level of help and support that they want is not always so simple!

[/quote]

On the other hand, if they want it, then on some level they feel they need it, don't they?

[/quote]

No I don't think that follows. I'm not talking about the new grad in their first year or two, who does need mentoring and support . I get the impression with a minority of new and not so new vets that it's more a pattern of behaviour of not wanting to step outside their comfort zone and make decisions/take responsibility without running it past another colleague. They are often perfectly capable of dealing with a case but would rather have another vet take, or at least share, the responsibility. I have worked in the sort of situation the OP describes and what was telling to me was that when I changed my approach to asking what they thought the options were, or what tests were appropriate, ie trying to get them to make the effort, they quickly switched to asking another colleague who tended to just tell them what to do or take over the case himself. Sometimes it's human nature to take the easiest course, and keep taking it - and if there is nothing to change the situation, the vet won't learn to start standing on their own two feet, which in the end isn't doing them any favours, and is likely to result in even more stress when their crutch isn't available.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:39:46 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Stock answer to give regarding the fluids or pain relief; "What do you think?"

They should soon get the message. Otherwise should there be clear instructions left so they don't have to ask?

[/quote]

That's the stock answer they do get, but for some reason their sense of reasoning disappears between the hours of 8pm and 8am! They are learning slowly though.

[/quote] I guess you could say they automatically "log on" to you the minute they enter the clinic hey...........these days "google what is blar blar" is the bug. Why bother reason when they have you "the server" to download from.........

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:03:31 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Stock answer to give regarding the fluids or pain relief; "What do you think?"

They should soon get the message. Otherwise should there be clear instructions left so they don't have to ask?

[/quote]

That's the stock answer they do get, but for some reason their sense of reasoning disappears between the hours of 8pm and 8am! They are learning slowly though.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:27:24 GMT

[quote user="ChrisBVSc"]

Although I think personally the only thing that really got me out of the new grad phase of asking for help all the time was actually moving to a new job, as you can definitely get stuck in the mindset of being the "new grad" if that's all you've known in a practice. (Not that I'm suggesting you need to get rid of your vets!!)

[/quote] I believe the key word is "mindset".......one can change a job but retain the same mindset. The important thing for me is to try and understand personalities...some vets develop this behaviour in vet school.......parasitising information from fellow students instead of digging for it themselves......and subconsciously carry it on into the workplace. These have a tendency to quickly identify "potential hosts" to parasitise where ever they go and work. The problem is that "potential hosts" often discover whats happening when its too late, and weaning off the parasitic becomes an issue. [quote user="ChrisBVSc"]

It's probably a case of discussing this with the experienced vets more than the recent grads, because ultimately they are likely to be reinforcing the needy behaviour by the way they respond to questions.

[/quote] I think it should be both groups. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making it clear that you expect everyone to carry their weight (read up on cases, know standard case workup, know where everything is - especially the library and computer, and how to use every piece of equipment, that support staff are there to be supervised - so its a must to be familiar with their duties/roles etc). No kid gloves from day one........first present your findings, your differentials and your plan...then I will critic it. "Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind" sort of approach!! And I agree, it helps to get all the experienced guys to adopt the same stance......it cements reality much faster. One question.......How does one deal with the reverse........An experienced vet parasitising off a gifted young grad (remember these new guys have more current data, are simply brilliant at what they do and are more comfortable with technology than most oldies). How does the poor newbbie get rid of such???

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

ChrisBVSc — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:38:34 GMT

Absolutely agree with everyone saying that there should always be the option of discussing cases & asking questions freely, and this should continue, but it's just a case of trying to avoid 'spoon feeding' the new grads for too long. As others have said, turning it around into a 'what would you do' or a general discussion is a really good idea, trying to lead them into making the final decision. I'm 8 years qualified & thinking back to my 1st job, this is what some of the experienced vets did with me, and it worked really well. One vet just used to give a me a few ideas and say "do what you think!" Although I think personally the only thing that really got me out of the new grad phase of asking for help all the time was actually moving to a new job, as you can definitely get stuck in the mindset of being the "new grad" if that's all you've known in a practice. (Not that I'm suggesting you need to get rid of your vets!!)

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Bob Russell — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:38:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".[/quote]

But working out the difference between the level of help and support that they need, as opposed to the level of help and support that they want is not always so simple!

[/quote]

This is important. My practice have more experienced vets as a 2nd on call, to be called in if there's a surgical case, if it's really busy or to ask for advice about an urgent complex medical case. However, some of the less confident vets take it too far - we've been woken up at 2am to ask whether a dog's fluids should be replaced as the bag had run out, or whether an inpatient should be given pain relief.

And they're surprised when we're a little short with them on the phone!

[/quote]

Stock answer to give regarding the fluids or pain relief; "What do you think?"

They should soon get the message. Otherwise should there be clear instructions left so they don't have to ask?

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:55:54 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".[/quote]

But working out the difference between the level of help and support that they need, as opposed to the level of help and support that they want is not always so simple!

[/quote]

And they're surprised when we're a little short with them on the phone!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:06:51 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".[/quote]

But working out the difference between the level of help and support that they need, as opposed to the level of help and support that they want is not always so simple!

[/quote]

On the other hand, if they want it, then on some level they feel they need it, don't they?

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:26:54 GMT

Just one small thing to add......soon after qualifying I enrolled on the staff development programme which involved taking part in clinics. One of the things they provided upfront was a frequency diagram of the cases over the last three years which immediately told me what was most common and what was rare.........and this helped me greatly in terms of where to start in preparing to work there. They also took one through the use of equipment and we were then required to demonstrate to others.......this keptone on the ball. Cheers

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

An On MRCVS — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 22:36:10 GMT

Thanks for the input everyone. There are some useful points and ideas. We do have appraisals but only once a year - mini reviews every few months may well be useful on both sides.

Re getting more experienced vets we are not looking to advertise again - more looking at how to help and develop the vets that we have. Asking the question back and getting input from the vet asking the question rather than just giving a quick answer (unless a quick answer is needed) is a good idea.

As Claire says it can also be hard on the vet that is being asked all the time and it is sometimes used as a way of offloading responsibility for a case.

I'm 20 + years qualified and there are still times I want to discuss cases - learning from students and new and recent graduates can be a great way of keeping up to date with what's new as well!

Any more input gratefully received - Thanks everyone!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Stephanie Wellings — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 21:55:57 GMT

I think it's important to differentiate between different situations as well. For instance, it might be that the recent grad needs to have the assurance of support in certain situations but not others, especially those that are time-crucial (like animals under GA for x-rays - ideally you should be willing to cast an eye over the radiographs before they wake the animal up because otherwise the chance to take other views etc is lost). If it's something that is less 'urgent' then I think its reasonable to be asked to make a plan, with background reading if necessary, and run it past a senior vet before implementing if they need to. Similarly to what you have to do in the PDP, it might be useful for them to keep a log of their cases -I.e. If they always ask for help with inappetant cats, a log of those cases - to help them see the patterns and if possible review them as case discussions, so they might not need help with individual cases but at least have had input and discussion to help inform them next time.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Utlendigur — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 20:35:28 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".[/quote]

But working out the difference between the level of help and support that they need, as opposed to the level of help and support that they want is not always so simple!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 20:14:28 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]But this is not what the questioner is asking.[/quote]

The very simple answer is "as much help and support as they need".

What we are discussing are the best ways of delivering that.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:59:35 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

But this is not what the questioner is asking. Vets all through their careers need to ask and learn from those older and younger. Sometimes a second opinion from any other vet can really help throw light on a difficult case The questioner is asking how much is reasonable and what ground rules to set and when to expect help and when to do some background study.

[/quote] I think we should also look at the employer (experienced vet)....at the point of interview I believe selection criteria dictates what to expect from the employee......you can either get a ready made fit (experienced vet) or compromise and get someone on the learning curve. I dont think its fair to knowingly employ an inexperienced individual and then expect miracles.....its safer to just draw up a comprehensive programme for all new staff and tick boxes........performance management with clear KPIs definately make it easy to assess everyone to the same level and weed out the lazy ones!!!!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 16:59:17 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

The feeling is that although we are happy to discuss cases some vets are not making any effort to read around cases for themselves even when they know they have scheduled a re check.

[/quote]

Would part of the solution be to try and introduce a culture where if they are not sure how to proceed with a case they no longer present it as 'what should I do next?', but rather they work out what they think the next step should be and present it as 'is this what I should do next?'

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

J G Wray — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:58:28 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

The feeling is that although we are happy to discuss cases some vets are not making any effort to read around cases for themselves even when they know they have scheduled a re check.

We want to set a few ground rules but are wondering what the culture is in other practices with a mix of experience amongst the vets.

[/quote]

Do you have regular appraisals? These are the times when the elements required for progression rather than coasting can be agreed upon.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:34:24 GMT

I have had issues with overconfident nurses, rather than vets. We did have one who spent a lot of time making it clear we were doing things wrong because it was not the same as her training practice.

After checking (quietly) what I was doing was reasonable (or not), I would make some effort to discuss the pros and cons of the options.

Sadly this continued unabated but thankfully a new job appeared that offered everything we did not!

I would approve of the idea of having a more formal discussion of some of the difficult cases. Not only would it help to sort out cases it would probably show the less experienced vets that experience does not provide answers on a plate!

I question pretty much everything!

To answer the original question! Depends what they are asking. Silly questions or sensible ones. Nothing wrong with getting the questioner to contact the lab for advice (for example) but I would be keen to discuss what was said.

Don't wet nurse them but guide them to sources of information. Always make them provide some feedback on what they have learned. They will either get on with it themselves or keep coming back with more knowledge that you can benefit from!

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:25:15 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

For the vets out there qualified 2-5 years what help and support so you get/would you like (but maybe don't get)?

[/quote]

Not meant to have a go here - but why not paying for a more experienced vet if you don't want the hassle (assuming that there are enough jobless vets around to take in, of course)?

I'd agree with Wynne here, it is better to answer the same question 5 times than to have to face your client with a genuine complain because the question wasn't asked.

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:15:56 GMT

Very true Wyyne and unfortunately it's often those most in need who are least likely to ask for help. it is also a massive boost to a young vet if a senior vet asks for their opinion and we should do it more often and open our ears

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:53:10 GMT

I agree, we can all learn (and need to) throughout our careers. What I'm saying is some, once they have a little experience (the 2/6 year qualified stage) become over-confident. I'd far rather work with someone who needs a little extra support than one of those.

Wynne

RE: How much help and support would you give a 2-4 year qualified veterinary surgeon?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:41:40 GMT