What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 14 Aug 2015 21:19:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] So where is the button I haven't found it yet?[/quote]

That tall man in a sharp suit wearing dark glasses and a thingy in his ear just behind you is carrying it in that briefcase.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Charlotte Marshall — Fri, 14 Aug 2015 21:08:58 GMT

I think only the person who asked the question gets to see and press the answered question button.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 12:38:01 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]This is an extreme situation Martin, in my case the dog was just a bit unwell. However, still, a simple ab jab can cause a devastating effect. The real owner hadn't given me permission to give it. [/quote]Well I know, it is just that Michael raised the comparison with school trips.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I'll press the button if you want.[/quote] 'World, the time has come to press the button'. (apologies to the Chemical Brothers). So where is the button I haven't found it yet?

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:05:54 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Yes but the crux of my argument is the refusal of the 'friend' to give permission which would raise my suspicion that they were covering up something. [/quote]

Exactly

[quote] resulted in her having a seizure with a trip to hospital. The first we heard about it was when she got home.To say I was not pleased with the school [/quote]

This is an extreme situation Martin, in my case the dog was just a bit unwell. However, still, a simple ab jab can cause a devastating effect. The real owner hadn't given me permission to give it. [quote]

PS Why is this thread showing as an unanswered question? I would have thought we've answered this more than most.[/quote]

I'll press the button if you want. But I still see both sides being right depending on the end result. Who's right?

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:51:58 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]As far as I am concerned if I entrust my dogs care to someone that would include the ability to consent to simple medical treatment. They are acting in loco parentis, in the same way a schoolteacher who took a child on a trip would take them to a doctor or A&E if they were ill or injured.[/quote]Yes but the crux of my argument is the refusal of the 'friend' to give permission which would raise my suspicion that they were covering up something.

And as for the school trip analogy: my daughter suffered a head injury on a school skiing trip which rendered her unconscious for 20 minutes and resulted in her having a seizure with a trip to hospital. The first we heard about it was when she got home.To say I was not pleased with the school is something of an under-statement. They were lucky I'm not the vindictive kind who would take further action, albeit I did suggest they may like to 'review their policy' on informing parents.

PS Why is this thread showing as an unanswered question? I would have thought we've answered this more than most.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 13 Aug 2015 08:12:10 GMT

I'd have contacted the RSPCA if I'd been presented with that one - prosecution case.

Wynne

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Silvia Maldonado — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 22:54:00 GMT

"Didn't like his attichood"... my new sentence of the day :)

If it helps, I put to sleep a cachectic, blind, dehydrated, and on the verge of dying 16 y.o dog without the owner's consent. It was brought by the owner's family, the owner was in hospital (unable to contact), the dog had been alone at home and unattended for a weak, and none of them consented with either treating (had ARF as well) and caring for the dog or euthanasia. I got a vet nurse as a witness, and I did it. That was 2 years ago, I've not heard of any complaint or anything else so far. Personally, I do feel I did right.

In any case, had I been asked, I'd have stood up for my decision, I had my arguments.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:35:44 GMT

As far as I am concerned if I entrust my dogs care to someone that would include the ability to consent to simple medical treatment. They are acting in loco parentis, in the same way a schoolteacher who took a child on a trip would take them to a doctor or A&E if they were ill or injured.

My wife is a worrier so if our animal had a minor ailment then I would be quite happy the person looking after the dog to consent to the necessary treatment. If it was something major then I'd like to be contacted. You could ruin my wife's holiday ringing her about some minor ailment in the dog. We'd want to know if it was an option of major op or PTS. I'd like to know before an enucleation, unless it was an emergency.

If I trust someone with the dog, I trust them to do this. I don't see it needs pieces of paper and a solicitor! I don't want my holiday disturbed for a torn nail or a bit of diarrhoea.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 15:37:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Does this mean the owner is a client or were both parties strangers? - I'd assumed the latter.

[/quote]

Sorry Martin, my bad. the real owner wasn't an stranger, we have a medical history of the patient. However, being in a large practice, they weren't known to me personally.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:14:44 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]The client came back from holidays and phone to complain about how their friend was treated.[/quote]In all the excitement I forgot to fully digest this sentence. Does this mean the owner is a client or were both parties strangers? - I'd assumed the latter. If the former it may have helped me to decide what action to take and if I knew them and the dog's history well I may have taken a different attitude. But if this just came out of the blue I would have stuck to my plan A.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:02:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Send home with some prokolin and recovery diet [/quote]And suppose it had a dietary sensitivity which they had been struggling to treat for ages and you just messed up its diet and made it worse?

[/quote]

If after reasonably close questioning of the carer Francisco could be reasonably sure there was nothing funny going on, to treat the dog thus would be all right. If anything made him a bit suspicious, it would be fair to stick to kaolin.

I imagine that if the owner had not come back and complained about his treatment of her friend, Francisco would not be worrying.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:54:00 GMT

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:49:38 GMT

Think we are making a massive mountain out of a molehill here. Dog comes in, bit of diarrhoea. Send home with some prokolin and recovery diet (other brands are available). Job done.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:47:35 GMT

Thanks Martin. I think we were typing simultaneously.

Wynne

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:46:34 GMT

Evelyn No - because that wouldn't have been in the cat's interest - and there was no way of knowing when, or if at all - the owner could be contacted (it wasn't chipped) In Francisco's case, the owner could be contacted, the friend wouldn't, as opposed to couldn't do so. Totally different scenarios.

I think that if you trouble to check my reply with a lawyer, you'll find I'm right.

Wynne

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:41:06 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]So, if a similar case came up today, would you decline to give any treatment until the owner had either been asked for permission or proved untraceable?[/quote]I think that is unfair Eveyln because in this case Wynne didn't know that an owner existed so the inspector was its de-facto carer.The cat had a condition that warranted treatment, Franciso's didn't, he himself says it was well.

The crux of this is the refusal of the 'friend' to allow him to call the owner which would make me question their motives and the truth of the statement that they were on holiday at all. The dog didn't need treatment the person bringing it in was probably just fed up with cleaning up the mess!

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:38:40 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I don't see any difference from the risk you take many times a day giving any drug to any patient.

[/quote]

I see your point. But the difference is that the owner had given me their pet and had already put their trust (or some degree of) on me in the case you mention. In my original case, that hadn't happened.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:28:11 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I once had an RSPCA Inspector bring in an injured cat - lame and tooth marks. I gave it antibiotics and metacam, and the Inspector took it to the rehoming centre. The original owner who was into alternative medicine, and, in particular homeopathy turned up, and made an awful fuss - because I'd tried to kill the cat with antibiotics!.[/quote]

So, if a similar case came up today, would you decline to give any treatment until the owner had either been asked for permission or proved untraceable?

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:24:20 GMT

I believe that the lawyers would say the difference is "assault upon property"

Wynne

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:22:17 GMT

I think you did it exactly right. It would be different if the animal had been brought in from a boarding kennel, because all good kennels make the owners sign authority to obtain veterinary treatment. I once had an RSPCA Inspector bring in an injured cat - lame and tooth marks. I gave it antibiotics and metacam, and the Inspector took it to the rehoming centre. The original owner who was into alternative medicine, and, in particular homeopathy turned up, and made an awful fuss - because I'd tried to kill the cat with antibiotics!. Sometimes you're damned if you do,and damned if you don't. If you always stick strictly to the law - which is what you've done - then that's the best you can do.

Wynne

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:20:23 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Now, from a legal point of view, What if I give a course of antibiotics (or an injection for that matter), and the patient dies of anaphylactic shock?

I guess that's VDS department, right?

[/quote]

I'm prepared to be corrected, but unless you were reckless I don't see any difference from the risk you take many times a day giving any drug to any patient.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:08:25 GMT

Thank you for all your responses. I did give the pet a basic treatment at the time. Maybe I'm just looking too hard into it.

Now, from a legal point of view, What if I give a course of antibiotics (or an injection for that matter), and the patient dies of anaphylactic shock?

I guess that's VDS department, right?

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:53:45 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Should I just treat the pet because, at the end of the day, their ownership is not my problem and the agent came to us in good faith?[/quote]

Yes.

Usually.

But of course it depends on circumstances and on what you need to do and how you wish to treat the dog and the severity of the illness or injury and on what basis the agent is looking after the dog and how well you know the owners. Many of my clients will come to tell me that they are going away and who is looking after the dog, and we arrange either that the friend will pay and get a receipt, or that the owner will pay me on return, should anything be necessary. Without that arrangement, carer pays just like anybody else.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I tried to explain that their original owners should have a say on how to treat the pet, but that only upset them. The client came back from holidays and phone to complain about how their friend was treated.[/quote]

I think you were perhaps being just a bit too "proper" with the friend; friend may have been brooding and spun owner a tale; but this sort of response is just unfair and mean, when you were trying to do the right thing. We call this the "didn't like his attichood" response, and there's nothing you can do about it.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Claudia Niehoegen — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:49:20 GMT

If someone hands their pet over to a friend while going on holidays I would assume that trust also includes decisions about minor treatments. An eye enucleation would definitely fall outside that remit.

If the owner is around but the friend just takes it on themselves to take the pet to a vet that would be a different matter. Often we don't really know the exact circumstances though, do we. Partners, parents, children, carers- most of the time we work on trust that the person presenting the dog is authorised to do so.

We are at present pursuing a debtor who refuses to pay because her dog was brought in by her now deceased husband and she does not see it as her debt although the account is in her name.

RE: What if the agent doesn't want to worry the owner?

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:49:15 GMT

I have the opposite view. In a simple case of diarrhoea in a pet that was otherwise well I would just give usual symptomatic treatment. Why would you need to contact the owner in this case? If it was something more serious that required investigation then fair enough.