Cecil the lion

RE: Cecil the lion

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:10:32 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]With animals, it is thought there is an interaction between MHC and smell, especially from the anal glands[/quote]

Someone mentioned on here a while back about the main cause of cat allergies in humans can be traced to anal gland secretion.

RE: Cecil the lion

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 12:12:09 GMT

thanks David , that's so interesting and why I love this list

RE: Cecil the lion

David Mills — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:29:14 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

That's lions for you though I always wonder how they identify the cubs aren't theirs ? can they smell DNA ? ( not serious)

[/quote]

Not far off. It is thought they recognise their own by interactions in the major histocompatibility complex (MHC) present on all cells. There are over 200 alleles and huge variation - in humans, it is thought that each individual probably has a unique MHC make-up (called HLA in humans) which allows us to recognise our own. Of course in humans, emotion and culture has a huge influence (see DNA test episodes of Jeremy Kyle), and it is thought that the reason babies look like their dads early on is an evolutionary tactic to prevent infanticide.

With animals, it is thought there is an interaction between MHC and smell, especially from the anal glands, with animals able to 'spot' a MHC very close to their own (i.e. likely their offspring) and distinguish it from one not sufficiently like their own (lioness been playing away), leading in the latter to dead cubs.

RE: Cecil the lion

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:48:17 GMT

That's lions for you though I always wonder how they identify the cubs aren't theirs ? can they smell DNA ? ( not serious)

RE: Cecil the lion

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:23:50 GMT

Now one of Cecil's cubs has been killed by another male lion. Another death on Walter Palmer's conscience (if the evil man has one?)

RE: Cecil the lion

J G Wray — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 15:51:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Must go now, i've got three sheep to shag before I take my wife's betgwn and conical hat to the cleaners, then it's a quick tea of laver bread before I get off to the male voice choir rehearsal[/quote]

Rock and Roll Bangor-a style (Bhangra style but less colourful). Has anyone else been there in the rain with the students away? The way the railway disappears into a black hole is symbolic.

I know nothing about Bangor

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 15:17:06 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]and how all that could be achieved without an animal getting in the way.[/quote]

Very easily, of course, as you know, and as I suppose in your roundabout way you were pointing out. I do it all the time. Doesn't mean I see anything wrong with (legally) shooting deer, grouse, rats, pigeons, foxes.... and, dare I say (yes, cliche I admit, but I'm in a hurry)........ badgers? In the recent trial in which, what was it, nearly 50% of badgers were not killed (and so assumed to have been missed, but maybe were injured), who the hell did they hire to do the shooting? Any pest control shooter I know would be desperately ashamed of such a record, to the point of giving up.

[quote user="J G Wray"][sigh] My point was that like the lion sometimes hunted animals are not killed "cleanly" (is that the euphemism?) even back here on our crowded urbanised island and the consequences can be far reaching and potentially hazardous. When any activity has a social risk, even a deadly risk (hitting a 40kg deer at 70mph), then the "sportsman", if also a social creature and a responsible person should consider curbing their activity, perhaps not even doing it in the way that they do. If they fail to understand and modify their "sporting" behaviour then they are being antisocial and should expect social censure and perhaps even withdrawal of the "sport". [/quote]

Legal, licensed, competent shooters do not fire unless they are certain (right firearm, right ammunition, right range, right light, right conditions....) of killing the deer on the spot.

As for poachers and illegal pot-shotters, yes, absolutely [quote user="J G Wray"]If they fail to understand and modify their "sporting" behaviour then they are being antisocial and should expect social censure and perhaps even withdrawal of the "sport". [/quote] and they get it when they are caught.

I don't know why i'm explaining all this. You aren't interested, except perhaps in pursuit of your hobby of sneering at things you know nothing about. Ah well, perhaps other readers may be mildly interested.

Must go now, i've got three sheep to shag before I take my wife's betgwn and conical hat to the cleaners, then it's a quick tea of laver bread before I get off to the male voice choir rehearsal

RE: Cecil the lion

J G Wray — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 13:57:58 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

J G Wray

here is a vet who sublimates his nerdiness for shooting like this

While you are sublimating your own nerdiness for....... what, I wonder? The World Professional Sneering Championship?

[/quote]

Ironic sneering, that's new. I'll have to think about that.

I was referring to what Dr Woodhouse wrote:

Michael Woodhouse

It's got aspects of skill getting into a suitable, safe and humane position. There is a nerdy aspect when you play with ballistics, holdover, range, wind.

and how all that could be achieved without an animal getting in the way.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]What is your point, Mr. Wray? Do you have one?[/quote]

[sigh] My point was that like the lion sometimes hunted animals are not killed "cleanly" (is that the euphemism?) even back here on our crowded urbanised island and the consequences can be far reaching and potentially hazardous. When any activity has a social risk, even a deadly risk (hitting a 40kg deer at 70mph), then the "sportsman", if also a social creature and a responsible person should consider curbing their activity, perhaps not even doing it in the way that they do. If they fail to understand and modify their "sporting" behaviour then they are being antisocial and should expect social censure and perhaps even withdrawal of the "sport".

RE: Cecil the lion

Richard Carter — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:44:53 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Interesting to see if he can outshoot those Boers...[/quote] Ha ha - as a descendent of ancestors who were on opposing sides in the same battle, glad to say they don't always shoot so straight.

Bloemfontein is hot, dry, dusty with very high glare on the range in March. Good luck

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:41:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]If I had my way (which unfortunately is a BIG if) I would seal off that entire region and leave them to decimate each other...international interference simply moves the battleground from there to our shores[/quote]Other than the fact that it would be a logistically impossible task and would involve an immense amount of international interference which would recruit many more jihadists and risk lone-wolf attacks on our shores, I would agree. However, we could also deport every bearded bloke and headscarf wearing woman to the area so that would get rid of that risk as well.

[/quote]

I was going to respond, but...... res ipses loquitur.

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:36:23 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]here is a vet who sublimates his nerdiness for shooting like this[/quote]

While you are sublimating your own nerdiness for....... what, I wonder? The World Professional Sneering Championship?

You aren't interested in shooting. I'm not interested in bicycling, or tennis, or cricket, or analysing KPI for that matter. (Somehow I imagine you, when there's no cricket on the telly, having a lovely time with business management magazines, then retiring early to bed with the latest psychobabble self-help manual.)

[quote user="J G Wray"] but there are poachers and inept or novice "cullers" round here. [/quote]

Illegal, illegal as well as reprehensible. (Some bast**d poacher has recently "written" (had ghosted) a book boasting of his lifelong crimes, how he hates the toffs, blah blah blah.... and it's been seriously reviewed in some newspapers. Unbelievable).

What is your point, Mr. Wray? Do you have one?

RE: Cecil the lion

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:58:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I can't keep up, but I do know that everyone who's ever tried to intervene in that area - going back to Alexander the Great - have all failed.[/quote]And of course it is British colonial policy in the area that screwed it up and created the current mess. You reap what you sew.

[/quote]

No it was not! Deep seated divisions within Islam esp Sunni/Shia being the real reason. British colonial policy was just one more system that failed to deal with an established problem.

Trying to force two groups to live in harmony has never worked!

RE: Cecil the lion

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:42:17 GMT

RE: Cecil the lion

J G Wray — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 09:03:10 GMT

here is a vet who sublimates his nerdiness for shooting like this

"..GB Rifle Team to South Africa 2017 - Nick Tremlett

Announcement for team selection to become a member of the GB Rifle Team to South Africa 2017

The NRA has honoured me with the captaincy of the Great Britain Rifle team to Bloemfontein, South Africa in 2017.

Dates have yet to be confirmed by SABU but are likely to be late March or early April. In order to reduce holiday commitment the tour will last about 2 weeks, culminating in the State Presidents. However the main focus of the tour will be the Australia Match, which is being held in South Africa for the first time since 1999. Having been a member of the winning team then I am delighted to have the opportunity of leading the GB team in 2017.

I am very fortunate to have Jeremy Langley joining me as Vice-Captain, and Derek Lowe as Adjutant, both of whom have a wealth of experience, including several previous tours to South Africa.

Shooting at Bloemfontein is very challenging in a number of ways, the physical demands of the altitude and climate being just one, and the South Africans are formidable opponents. In order to prepare for this, training will encompass some new techniques and applicants will need to be open minded to novel training methods. However my objective is to make the process both enjoyable and rewarding, in order to improve every team member's skill levels....."

He has the Queens medal from Bisley and I'm pretty sure Commonwealth and Olympic decorations.

Boy, does he hide his success.

Interesting to see if he can outshoot those Boers.....

RE: Cecil the lion

J G Wray — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 07:30:22 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I really enjoy shooting. I would list it as my main hobby. I've shot clays, deer, pheasant, partridge, duck, rabbit, fox, pigeon, woodcock all inside the last 12 months(you can add an otter, cows, sheep and horses to the list with my vet hat on). It's got aspects of skill getting into a suitable, safe and humane position.[/quote]

48 hours ago I euthanased a roe deer buck at the side of the M3 just near the deer sign between J6 and 5 by the 70.4 marker. It was all flashing lights and an audience of uniformed bystanders.

A witness present saw the deer stagger across the carriageway collide with the nice new concrete barrier then stagger back to the verge and collapse

There was no collision with a car.

The deer had one wound on the left side cranial to the scapula 30*20cm*10cm deep with a clean edge tissue loss dessicated tissue surface. The fly larvae were abundant...

This is the rutting season, but there are poachers and inept or novice "cullers" round here. This animal had been injured sometime earlier and made its way to the M3. Fortunately (?) there was no collision with a vehicle travelling at 70mph.

Injuries that don't kill, hmmmmmm

I wonder if the term Iatrogenic could be used for an injury that doesn't kill when inflicted by a veterinary surgeon hatless or otherwise.

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 01:02:54 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"] If I had my way (which unfortunately is a BIG if) I would seal off that entire region and leave them to decimate each other[/quote]

Ah, the humanity.

A faraway country of which we know little, eh? (Wynne will explain that one to anybody who doesn't get it).

Yes, indeed, let's have peace in our time. (Ditto).

Going back to the original thread.... we now know a little more. Palmer did not use a bow and arrow, he used a crossbow.

Even the mediaeval crossbow would penetrate plate armour at 100yards.

RE: Cecil the lion

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 20:55:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote] If I had my way (which unfortunately is a BIG if) I would seal off that entire region and leave them to decimate each other...international interference simply moves the battleground from there to our shores (which is what we now call terrorism)!!!!!!!!! On the issue of ISIS/ISIL, I distance myself.......this word gets you unwanted attention (forget freedom of speech.....this organisation is not covered by that). Unless of course you want to get an excuse to start a house makeover or simply want someone to dig up your garden for free so you can put in a new lawn!!!

RE: Cecil the lion

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 18:00:36 GMT

Are you writing about horticulture or dressmaking?

It's certainly true that between approx 1850 and approx 1900, we made 2 huge mistakes. Firstly in invading the Kingdom of the Punjab, when the Maharajah was a tiny boy (his elder brothers had all massacred each other) then, because this gave us a frontier with Afghanistan, repeatedly invading because of border raids. These could be called colonial mistakes. Syria and Afghanistan have never been colonies, and I refuse to accept too much responsibilty for the mess in Pakistan. Their biggest problem is overpopulation, and its inevitable consequence - poverty. The population was 50 million in 1950, just after the end of the Empire. It's now 165 million - an unsustainable increase, which is 100% their own fault

Tony Blair's illegal war was hardly colonial - more spineless boot-licking

Wynne

RE: Cecil the lion

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 17:47:22 GMT

RE: Cecil the lion

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 17:25:50 GMT

Uganda has also now made a committment to end elephant poaching/trophy killing, so another little bit of good news. Evelyn, trying to do something about ISIS will just make matters worse. I've given up attempting to make sense of the politics of that region. Firstly, Russia was the baddie for invading Afghanistan (we boycotted the Moscow Olynpics in 1980 for that reason) and the Taliban were the goodies for resisting. Then the Ayatollahs in Iran were the baddies, and Saddam Hussein the goody for fighting them. Then Saddam was the baddy for invading Quwait. Then Afghanistan was the baddy because of 9/11 Then the Syrian president was the baddy, now he, Iraq and Iran are all goodies, and ISIL the baddy. I can't keep up, but I do know that everyone who's ever tried to intervene in that area - going back to Alexander the Great - have all failed.

Nhombokisheni - you'll soon find that the majority on this forum are in a state of total denial about the devastating effect of excess humans

Wynne

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 13:33:41 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]Apologies for loosing you....[/quote]

No need to apologise, possibly I am easily lost. I do now see roughly what you are on about, but I've heard too many hippy ramblings over the years (I was a hippy myself once) I don't see the point about beating ourselves up about what's been done. Cane toads for example: the introduction was made with the best of intentions for the good of mankind. There's no point in agonising over whether it was stupid, or what. All we (no, not us on this forum, but the scientific people actually facing the problem) need to do is a) to consider what to do about it right now; and b) to do research to avoid such a mistake being made again (reintroduction of beavers and wolves, anyone?)

Interesting political parallel. (Maybe this should be tangent, but we've wandered so far already.......) There's no point agonising over our disastrous interventions in Syria and Iraq that let ISIS get started. The point is, we should be doing something about ISIS!

RE: Cecil the lion

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 13:08:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Nhombokisheni, I'm sorry, but you've lost me completely. I feel no guilt for having the DNA which makes me Homo sapiens. There is no Garden of Eden that we can return to.

[/quote]Apologies for loosing you....in the last few days we talked about the cats facing culling...the solution to cull makes sense, but we all know how those cats ended up on that island...brought by man for his own pleasures. You are also aware of the cane toads " Cane toads have spread exponentially across the northern half of Australia since being brought over in 1935 from Hawaii by the Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations as a way to control cane beetles in Queensland", many more examples exist.....mankind are responsible for a lot that is wrong with our environment. This is not about guilt or the "garden" that never existed (another story another day ---Martin has already warned against delving into the murky waters of religion), its about acknowledging the real root of the problem. Cecil was made to suffer and many on this forum were clearly angry/upset.......the question we may need to answer is this "Do we reach the same levels of anger/frustration when a wild reptile that was caught and "broken" into a pet is presented hardly able to move, with multiple fractures from malnutrition/poor husbandry. This poor "cutey lizard" to me is suffering just as much as cecil. How many of us have seriously attempted to "diplomatically" make clients realise these "PETS" are supposed to be in the wild...period!!! All I am saying is what I have said from the beginning....cecil provided a platform for dialogue.....we can choose to treat the symptoms (Deal with Palmer and co) and ignore the cause OR we can face our demons(Mugabe will be a good start) as humans and start trying to live in harmony with our environments......dominion is not meant to be exploitation, enslavement, punishment etc. AT the moment humans are just "savages dressed in sheep's clothing" Concerns have been raised regarding the threat of human population explosion, and some interesting solutions proferred......if nothing is done now, soon the "cat solution" maybe the only one left on the table....and that DNA might just become your biggest liability when nature strikes back.

RE: Cecil the lion

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 10:01:59 GMT

Hear hear

Wynne

RE: Cecil the lion

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 09:18:50 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm sorry, but you've lost me completely. I feel no guilt for having the DNA which makes me Homo sapiens. [/quote]Then you get lost easily Evelyn.

What he is basically saying is what I always beat out. That the layer of civilisation is very thin and that the instinct to kill to survive is lurking very closely beneath the surface. We have evolved into the dominant species of our era with the ability to both destroy and preserve the planet but collectively it seems we have not yet developed the intelligence or desire to live up to this responsibility. The dinosaurs had an excuse, we don't.

RE: Cecil the lion

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 20:59:43 GMT

Nhombokisheni, I'm sorry, but you've lost me completely. I feel no guilt for having the DNA which makes me Homo sapiens. There is no Garden of Eden that we can return to.