Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:03:04 GMT

Total agreement.

Wynne

(I wonder who will 1* this?)

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Bob Russell — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 09:40:53 GMT

Still not working but googled Daily Mail puppy scam and it gets you there OK.

Strange how Trading Standards staff are being advised to have rabies vaccinations whereas those of us at the 'sharp' end appear unworthy of such care!

What a shame the profession (presumably via our Chief Veterinary Officer) is not considered important enough to consult widely but an article in the Daily Mail gets questions asked in parliament!

Did nobody really consider the likely behaviour of these low life traders?

Nothing under six months of age without an import permit/licence!

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

grumpyoldman — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 11:27:15 GMT

sorry :-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3166675/The-puppy-passport-scam-exposes-UK-risk-rabies-outbreak-Crooked-Eastern-European-vets-duping-dog-lovers-believing-vaccinated-animals.html.

forgot a 6 !.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Bob Russell — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 11:01:05 GMT

Link on my computer goes to Blunkett's pebble police!!!

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

grumpyoldman — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:34:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Not very easy at all quite frankly and a bit pointless[/quote] For you and I yes , Had a letter this morning from Staffordshire County Council :

Any pups imported in to the UK must be a minimum of 15 weeks of age .

In some instances these puppies are illegally imported ,with fraudulent passports and/or irregularities in relation to age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-316675/The-puppy-passport-scam-exposes-UK-risk-rabies-outbreak-Crooked-Eastern-European-vets-duping-dog-lovers-believing-vaccinated-animals.html.

It goes on to provide trading standards day time and emergency contact details .

We do seem to have had a large influx of people from Eastern Europe in recent years . There does appear to be a bit of locking the stable door after.... etc.

In the past when we have seen these puppies and reported the situation its landed on stoney ground, its amazing what a bit of media interest can do in the corridors of power.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:01:28 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"] It did make me wonder how easy would it be to take an animals chip out abroad ,put that chip in a pregnant bitch of a similar breed ,and drive through with it unmolested?.[/quote]Not very easy at all quite frankly and a bit pointless.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Catriona MacIntyre — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 20:58:24 GMT

Seriously?

DEFRA have the gall to require us to "re-validate" and "re-train" every few years to be allowed the privilege of providing Official Veterinarian services........ and they let a microchipped fluffy toy through

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

grumpyoldman — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 19:28:37 GMT

When I travelled back this May through the tunnel in the flex-plus lane the only things that were briefly checked/scanned were the dogs. We were just waved through everything else until we hit the M20. It did make me wonder how easy would it be to take an animals chip out abroad ,put that chip in a pregnant bitch of a similar breed ,and drive through with it unmolested?.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:23:50 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]What brand were the vaccines[/quote]The rabies was Rabisin and the normal vaccines Vanguard. Although according to data sheets they should be given at the same time, I assume this is due to lack of data than an actual risk. So my take is that if they are not mixed together this is a theoretical problem not an actual one. So I was happy to let that go.

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I wouldn't be concerned that the chip hadn't been registered.[/quote]I'm not worried about that so long as it identifies the pup that is all that matters. That they will find difficulty registering it to their own name is their problem for being so stupid as to buy the pup in the first place.

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"] I imagine trading standards wouldn't be interested as long as the microchip details in the passport matched those in the puppy, and the rabies vaccine date was okay.[/quote]Absolutely.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:06:33 GMT

But ferry/train staff should be checking every passenger (passport etc) and every pet (no problem with owners doing the scan and passing the unit to the staff member). This is cheaper for them than paying the cost of UK Border staff which would be the alternative.

If the system is unworkable then a new system needs to be introduced (that works)!

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:12:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Well when Customs admit that they cannot check even a small percentage of vehicles for illegal immigrants there's little chance of them finding puppies or bothering to check them if they do.[/quote]

Very true

I worked with an inspector in a port a few years ago. Car thieves steal BMW's and David Beckhams Range Rovers and these end up in the Middle East. If they can't find a car then what hope a cuddly toy?

Interesting comment last night from an ex police officer, with less police comes less crime detection as they aren't searching as much, therefore figures go down and it looks great.

Neil

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Nhombokisheni — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:02:40 GMT

You can delegate a responsibility but you cannot delegate accountability The buck still stops with you. period. All I am saying is DEFRA is the accountable party. They can choose to ask someone to help them, and its upto them to verify that necessary checkes are being made(third parties cutting contract corners is nothing new). By taking the checking of every animal off-shore before departure, then we know someone has at least verified the earthly existence of the animal, and verified that it meets the required travelling conditions. If the current third parties (carriers - who are commercially driven, profiteering concerns) are not able to fulfill their delegated responsibility, I am certain there are vets out there who are able to form companies and do a better job.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Rob Loxley — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:44:26 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]Port Health Authorities have a mandate to protect the country from incursions of listed diseases[/quote]

But this is delegated to the carrier e.g Eurotunnel, whose implementation of the checks is woefully lacking

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Nhombokisheni — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:54:35 GMT

Port Health Authorities have a mandate to protect the country from incursions of listed diseases, including picking on novelty conditions. I totally agree that the numbers maybe overwhelming to make the checking impractical. Maybe the procedure could be changed (extrapolating from VPH meat and meat product movement) ...........Get the vets in the exporting country to check every pet at terminal/border point of departure and endorse the certificates (which can be done in a given time frame whereas at point of entry there is pressure). This way the importing country authorities need only check a random sample as part of verification. I believe its also possible to require the exporting country authorities to forward details of all eligible animals, (which they will have seen and scanned). Ineligible animals can hopefully be turned away before departure.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:19:31 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

the normal vaccines were given on the same date as the rabies, Given that according to the data sheets they should be given 2 weeks apart does this constitute a breach of regulations? Also there was no owner's name and address and and the chip could not be found on a search of the European database although it did match the one in the pup.

[/quote]

What brand were the vaccines, the Nobivac Rabies data sheet says this:

"Safety and efficacy data are available which demonstrate that this vaccine can be used to reconstitute the freeze dried Intervet vaccines of the Nobivac range containing one or more of the following: live canine distemper, canine adenovirus, canine parvovirus and canine parainfluenza and inactivated canine leptospirosis antigens or live feline viral rhinotracheitis virus, feline calicivirus and feline panleucopenia virus."

I wouldn't be concerned that the chip hadn't been registered. I've done a couple of passports recently for clients moving to France, the animals weren't previously chipped and as they were moving about a month later there didn't seem much point registering them on a UK database, I told them to see a vet in France and get the chips registered onto a French database.

I would be a bit concerned about there being no owner's details in the passport, but I imagine trading standards wouldn't be interested as long as the microchip details in the passport matched those in the puppy, and the rabies vaccine date was okay.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:00:09 GMT

I had a puppy in last night that the owner had bought off Gumtree form some dodgy dealer in the East End which had clearly been imported on a Polish passport. The age, dates of chipping and Rabies vaccination only just passed muster but the normal vaccines were given on the same date as the rabies, Given that according to the data sheets they should be given 2 weeks apart does this constitute a breach of regulations? Also there was no owner's name and address and and the chip could not be found on a search of the European database although it did match the one in the pup.

In the end I was just about happy that it was in order but that is assuming the whole thing wasn't falsified to start with.Given it took me several minutes to be satisfied, it would be impossible for an immigration officer to check the documents of a whole van load of puppies even aware they are in there!

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 11:23:16 GMT

No reason for the staff to actually have contact with the pet. They watch the owners scan the dog/puppy. The key thing is they see the pet. This way the animal is seen to have the correct chip.

If owners are unable to fulfil this minor condition then perhaps they should be prevented from travelling. The ability to travel is not a right but a privilege.

Operating the existing system is not rocket science as it is so liberal. It still needs proper monitoring. DEFRA are clearly failing to do this.

Tighten up the system so puppies under 20 weeks cannot be transported without a licence.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:55:10 GMT

Just why are we paying taxes?

Wynne

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Claudia Niehoegen — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:18:41 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]How can a puppy be scanned without being looked at? Are scanning staff so unobservant that they cannot tell a real puppy from a cuddly toy?[/quote]

The staff at the checkpoint at the Hoek of Holland never touch the dogs. They hand the scanner to the owner and then just look at the number. And who can blame them... Our dogs are quite terriotorial about the car and bark to warn people off. If staff had to get out of their cabins while owners get the dogs out of cars it would take a lot longer. I seem to remember that at the Channel tunnel entrance we had to take the dogs into a building to be checked. That of course would make it even easier to leave other dogs in the car.

As an aside, more for the passport thread: When we travelled last weekend the Dutch checkpoint lady noted that one of our dogs was chipped after the first rabies vax date. As she has had several vax since then she let it pass but warned we might get stopped on the UK side. There were fortunately no checks this side. We have travelled several times on this passport and nobody ever noticed this. Furthermore, the dog seems to have been vaccinated 6 months before being born... Someone who filled this passport in got her dates seriously muddled (I hope this sign turns into the "blushing embarassed" emoticon in the end! )

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:11:06 GMT

Well when Customs admit that they cannot check even a small percentage of vehicles for illegal immigrants there's little chance of them finding puppies or bothering to check them if they do.

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:04:02 GMT

If the task is delegated to ferry or train staff then where is the official supervision and monitoring of the staff doing the scanning?

RE: Dogs Trust showing DEFRA failing miserably in their duties

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:47:39 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]How can a puppy be scanned without being looked at? Are scanning staff so unobservant that they cannot tell a real puppy from a cuddly toy?[/quote]

And furthermore, is it so hard to ask them to do their job with a bit of quality. Really asking them to perform the checks appears, to me, as the minimum indispensable about their jobs.