Heartbreaking cull

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:55:30 GMT

It wouldn't matter. If you had suspicions they could proove/disproove them by DNA testing.

Wynne

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Bob Russell — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:53:21 GMT

But rabbits taste a bit like chicken too!

And for Wynne - no I did not go to trading standards. I was not confident enough to be sure and it tasted wonderful!

I ordered a cats skull from China via Ebay. Was pretty reluctant because of the possible welfare issues but did not feel able to ask a client if I could lop their deceased pets head off, boil it down, rebuild it so we could practice dental X-rays with new staff.

No such problem with a dog's skull. Bought a brilliant (and large) skull of a fox, presumably shot as vermin. Not identical to any of my patients but fantastic to show owners what teeth looked like before breeders made a mess of dogs genetics!

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:28:50 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Like chicken? I did an anatomical check on an Indian curry in Edinburgh once. To this day I am not convinced it was chicken![/quote]

In Italy during the 2nd world war people used to eat cats too, elderly people says they taste like rabbits but I wouldn't like to find out.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:15:27 GMT

I hope you took it straight to Trading Standards.

Wynne

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Bob Russell — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:36:09 GMT

Like chicken? I did an anatomical check on an Indian curry in Edinburgh once. To this day I am not convinced it was chicken!

Crocodile tastes like chewy chicken. Ostrich like very gamey and chewy chicken.

my cats get threatened with the pot every time they catch a bird! Praised for every mouse, shouted at for every shrew and screams from 'she who must be obeyed' when they have the temerity to bring in a slow worm!

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2015 15:23:33 GMT

Most ofthe time, I agree with you. Definitely not this time.

Wynne

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 19:30:19 GMT

I know this may not go down well. In parts of Africa, cats are copnsidered a delicacy. Given food shortages in these countries, maybe the culling could result in a good thing coming out of it and infact, this could swing public opinion favourably in support of the exercise. On more than one occasion I was invited to taste, but I failed to gather eough courage so I cannot say what the meat tastes like...sorry!!!!!

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Luca Poddighe — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:22:16 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Presuming that you're talking about people, I'm not sure that is true in Australia. According to various reports cats are responsible for 28 out of 29 mammal extinctions in the last 200 years. Ironically, given your comment, after being introduced by European settlers.[/quote]

Well, as you said, cat weren't likely to swim all the way to Australia, so in the end the responsible is people.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Whilst I was googling this one, I came across the news that Johnny Depp is in hot water after bringing his pet dogs into Australia without passing through quarantine.[/quote]

He's going to pay a big fine with the next installment of Pirates of the Caribbeans

Going back in topic. I agree strongly on the fact that culling on its own it is powerless, particularly if your not pursuing it on the long term. Necessarily they need to reduce the numbers as 2 million cats eat a lot of preys. Switching to neutering once the number have gone down under the critical level will be a more effective strategy and, furthermore, enforce by law neutering of pet-cats or importation of cats only if they are already neutered. This way will grant the best chance to control the number of cats in the future. I faced a similar problem in a small island in Italy were wild boars were introduced for hunting purposes, now the area is part of a sanctuary so those boars are reproducing out of control (and sometimes in-breeding with pigs) and eating everything they find putting at serious stake the survival of many wildlife species in the sanctuary. A cull was put in place for a few years and then stopped, the number of boars dropped and now they are as many as before and less likely to be captured as they don't trust man any longer.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:48:39 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Well it's his missus who has been ordered to appear in court.... [/quote]

Is she doing a Vicky Price?

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:05:45 GMT

Well it's his missus who has been ordered to appear in court....

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 00:33:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Whilst I was googling this one, I came across the news that Johnny Depp is in hot water after bringing his pet dogs into Australia without passing through quarantine.

I want to start a No 10 petition to have Barnaby Joyce, the Australian Minister for Agriculture deported to England on the next plane, and installed in place of Liz Truss.

[/quote]

. I'd sign it.

Oh dear, Johnny Depp is my hero, one of the finest movie actors ever; how could he? I blame his new missus.

(Is that remark going to force me to resign all my academic posts? Oh, wait a minute, I haven't got any).

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 20:05:41 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I am very concerned about declining numbers/species of wildlife - but the species whose unregulated breeding has caused the greatest problems aren't cats![/quote]

Presuming that you're talking about people, I'm not sure that is true in Australia. According to various reports cats are responsible for 28 out of 29 mammal extinctions in the last 200 years. Ironically, given your comment, after being introduced by European settlers. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australias-war-on-cats-government-plans-to-cull-2-million-by-2020-10398555.html

Personally, I feel very strongly about the loss of so many species of wildlife. If those facts are true, I think a cull is absolutely necessary. The sooner the better. I don't see how neuter and release would achieve anything in the short term.

I thought the more interesting question is the one being raised by other Australian ministers, which is whether domestic cats should be forced to live indoors to further protect wildlife. Surely that would be far more profoundly damaging to cat welfare than culling.

Whilst I was googling this one, I came across the news that Johnny Depp is in hot water after bringing his pet dogs into Australia without passing through quarantine.

I want to start a No 10 petition to have Barnaby Joyce, the Australian Minister for Agriculture deported to England on the next plane, and installed in place of Liz Truss.

This is why:

www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:40:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I am very concerned about declining numbers/species of wildlife - but the species whose unregulated breeding has caused the greatest problems aren't cats!

Wynne

[/quote] "Ke lela le lona" loosely translated its my way of saying I feel what you feel. BUT my advice is...no point going there...you will never get any joy!!!!!

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:40:01 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]many studies exist which prove neutering to be more effective in reducing the number of feral cats than culling. [/quote]

What types of populations are these though? I can see how it works in city populations with a high density of cats. I just wonder how it would work over hundreds of thousands of acres - for it to be humane you'd need to drive a quad and trailer or ute round miles and miles of traplines at least once, preferably twice a day, drive them miles to a central collection point to be neutered and ear nicked, then miles back again. I would also think that there would be more really wild "trap-avoiders" in this population than the ferals we see in UK cities which are used to the smell of manmade objects.

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]neutering to be more effective in reducing the number of feral cats than culling. That is unless you manage to cull an entire population which of course would be more effective. I have my serious doubts though that this is easily achieved. I you only cull some cats and not the whole population numbers will creep up again rapidly.[/quote]

I agree with this though, as I reckon cats are some of the fastest breeding, most resilient, successful predators on Earth. I think if they start culling they need to be in it for the long haul and keep on culling forever to suppress numbers. Eradicating the population is probably unrealistic unless there is a total ban on the keeping of cats; or (less easy to enforce) licensing of cats with property inspections to make sure no unneutered pet cats ever get outside (similar to the licensing laws for the keeping of ferrets in New Zealand).

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:29:04 GMT

I am very concerned about declining numbers/species of wildlife - but the species whose unregulated breeding has caused the greatest problems aren't cats!

Wynne

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:27:34 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Neutering would be a better way of achieving the same end result.[/quote]

Wynne - if we are doing our utmost to protect these animal's welfare, do you think capture, transport to a vet, surgery, captivity post operatively, transport back to capture site and then release is better or worse than shooting them?

I 100% believe that control via shooting is better for the wildlife and better for the cats. This is a different situation to them living semi-ferral in a UK town or city.

I'm going to ignore your farm tangent - but willing to chip in if you want to have a play with the tangent function.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:40:20 GMT

Agreed. As long as humans are in charge, some of the options called for to manage our environment will definately not conform to our daily mantra of "civility and welfare"

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:23:28 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Currently the Assies claim the 20million cats are killing 75million locals species a day!!!!! Neutering and releasing will not change this equation....neutered cats remain predators. I believe this is the dilemma that is facing them. If they dont act now, they stand to lose a lot of their native species which are on the brink of extinction (and cats have been identified as the main culprits). Put yourself in their shoes, WHAT would you do to remove/or at least ameliorate the risk facing the native species. Would you simply neuter the threat and release back into the same habitat or would you want to physically remove/reduce the threat as quick as possible. It may sound hash, heartless and wrong coming from a vet.....but these guys have a major problem and have very few options. I believe there probably is an option to use neutering in parallex, however the culling needs to be done. In Africa culling of wild animals "elephants, impala, kudu,wilderbeast etc" is routinely practised as part of range/park management. Humanely done, our parks have managed to control their ecosystems.

[/quote]

I didn't say I don't understand them. I just said studies show that this will be only short-term effective, but not long term. To me it sounds that the problem might be tackled a wee bit late. This isn't meant to be criticism, it is difficult to control feral cats in such a vast country for sure. Elephants and wildebeests are different from cats, they are not able to reproduce as fast in such high numbers. Cats can have (and will if the population shrinks) many more puppies within one year than the African species you mentioned. I guess they don't have a chance but to start with culling. If they want to succeed in the long run they might have to chose another route though.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 18:15:14 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

Whilst I fully understand that feral cats cause serious damage to wildlife and that people feeding them are a great nuisance I would like to point out that many studies exist which prove neutering to be more effective in reducing the number of feral cats than culling. That is unless you manage to cull an entire population which of course would be more effective. I have my serious doubts though that this is easily achieved. I you only cull some cats and not the whole population numbers will creep up again rapidly. The studies are about neuter and release, not about neuter and rehome, which would be the same as culling parts of the population.

[/quote] Currently the Assies claim the 20million cats are killing 75million locals species a day!!!!! Neutering and releasing will not change this equation....neutered cats remain predators. I believe this is the dilemma that is facing them. If they dont act now, they stand to lose a lot of their native species which are on the brink of extinction (and cats have been identified as the main culprits). Put yourself in their shoes, WHAT would you do to remove/or at least ameliorate the risk facing the native species. Would you simply neuter the threat and release back into the same habitat or would you want to physically remove/reduce the threat as quick as possible. It may sound hash, heartless and wrong coming from a vet.....but these guys have a major problem and have very few options. I believe there probably is an option to use neutering in parallex, however the culling needs to be done. In Africa culling of wild animals "elephants, impala, kudu,wilderbeast etc" is routinely practised as part of range/park management. Humanely done, our parks have managed to control their ecosystems.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 17:43:51 GMT

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 17:25:08 GMT

The papers are calling this a "cat massacre" which its clearly not. Every ecosystem has its limits, and its continued existence depends to a very large extent on the food chain dynamics. To reach this decision its obviously clear that ferral cats are threatening that ecosystem balance, and culling just might restore the balance. Neutering may alter numbers in the long term, but will not save the endandered species from cat predation in the immediate.....neutered cats remain predators. Humane culling is a viable option. One of the problems with ferral cats is the "good samaritan clique" who spend thousands feeding these animals. They dont care about the feelings of their neighbours.......the truth is life is a two way street.....unfortunately the law seems to punish only one side...those most affected by the ferral cats. There should be an equally "very tough" legal stance against these "feeders" of ferral cats. I have a neighbour who feeds ferral cats, which are a great nuisance. I always wondered why and was about to confront him when one day I found out he was "harvesting" the kittens and selling them on......That riled me to hell and back...but apart from reporting him "for feeding the POOR ANIMALS" there is absolutely nothing I can do that wont get me an appointment with the cops. Yes I support the initiative to manage ferral cat numbers, and will support an organised, humane method any day. We have agrred already (in other threads) that humans are themselves major factors in ecosystem imbalances.....we definately do not need the "ferral cats" lending us a hand!!!!!!

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 15:57:19 GMT

I agree with you that live export should be stopped - if we get out of the EU then stopping it will become legally possible.

I also totally condemn these zero-grazing mega-dairies. What we need in the UK is for farm-gate milkprices to be multiplied by at least 4 times, so the standards of dairy cattle welfare can be restored to those we took for granted 50 years ago.

I admire a lot of things about Australia, but not this. Neutering would be a better way of achieving the same end result. I really really hate taxation, but replacing culling by neutering would be one of the very very few uses of taxpayers money that I would actually approve of.

Wynne

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Braden Collins — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:54:23 GMT

I agree the methods need to be humane. The problem is on such a massive scale over 15 million feral cats needing culling.

i think some of the feral animal culls are not pleasant. 1080 would be a horrible death, but with over 30 species already extinct since white settlement and 30% of our mammal species threatened with extinction it is an issue that needs urgent action.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Braden Collins — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:47:35 GMT

I don't like live export and think it should be stopped, but then if we're looking for examples of suboptimal animal welfare it could go around to dairy cattle being kept indoors year round and unable to graze, various pig facilities, etc.

i don't think farming is perfect here, but is it in the UK?

i think to slam an entire industry as Hannah did with little evidence or knowledge of what actually happens is on par with people who educate themselves about vaccines on Google and Facebook.

RE: Heartbreaking cull

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:42:31 GMT

I have no objection to a cull, as long as the methods are humane.

(I was out until the early hours shooting rabbits)