Human doctors... Hunted?

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:05:48 GMT

Sometimes a "Tangent" option just isn't enough!!

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:27:23 GMT

Simple - if you know the answer!

Wynne

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Catriona MacIntyre — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:22:32 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The Sunday closing also had to do with Sunday trading laws - not sure about Monday - unless it was to give chip-shop staff a guaranteed 2 days off per week.

Wynne

[/quote]

Nae fish on a Monday! (Traditionally) boats wouldn't have been out on the Sabbath so no fish landed ready for buying on Monday. Growing up on the Isle of Bute, both our fishmongers were closed on a Monday. Never really had fish and chips much as a child so not sure about the chippies.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Richard Carter — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:47:35 GMT

and if you need an emergency Chinese, ours is closed Tuesdays

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:29:22 GMT

The Sunday closing also had to do with Sunday trading laws - not sure about Monday - unless it was to give chip-shop staff a guaranteed 2 days off per week.

Wynne

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:42:05 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The chip shop analogy doesn't work, firstly because 'have you ever seen one closed in the evening?'[/quote]

Yes. Not long ago, in Brecon.

Well, one of the Bangor ones too, my wife reminds me.

[/quote]

Traditionally fish and chip shops used to close on a Sunday and Monday evening. I can remember being told that it was because people used to have a roast on a Sunday and eat the leftovers on the Monday, so there was very little demand for fish and chips, not sure if that's true though.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 Jul 2015 00:47:22 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The chip shop analogy doesn't work, firstly because 'have you ever seen one closed in the evening?'[/quote]

Yes. Not long ago, in Brecon.

Well, one of the Bangor ones too, my wife reminds me.

When I were in West Yorkshire, we knew every chippie in town and decided which to go to on any particular occasion on a large number of factors. That one stayed open late but they kept the fish in the counter for hours, that one had the best fish but they closed early, that one did the best chips, that one was nearby but they precooked the chips and then gave them a second quick dunk in the fat, that one used beef dripping, that one used sunflower oil (posh!) , that one always gave you some fish bits if you asked, and so on.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:26:31 GMT

Exactly my feelings - but about taxation - not on call.

Wynne

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 17:55:16 GMT

Just as an aside, I have read two books by Ayn Rand (The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged). What is happening, with the government threatening the doctors is almost like watching a live act of the books (especially Atlas shrugged). In this book, the "men and women of the mind" found themselves at the mercy of a system that considered only the "common good", a system that was about "taking" built on the "need of the less fortunate". Laws were enacted to force the producers, the physicians, engineers etc to give up their lives for the "public".....until it got to point were the "people" believed they had a right to demand anything from the "men and women of the mind".(such as enforcing the 24/7 365 availability by Jeremy Hunt)........THEN the latter decided to go on strike, leaving an entire country crippled. They went to lead low profile, self sustaing lives free from any shackles....they had time to tend to the garden, enjoy farming, travel etc and while they could survive nicely, the "people system " was totally crippled by their absence" I just wonder what would happen if all these consultant felt "enough was enough" and just walked away. I believe this applies to vets as well, there is a line that will drawn one day. Corporates can push, some practices can modify rotas to work weekends, but there is no substitute for "living life".....its one and you only live it once. While some will not mind "slaving away" the days of their lives, I see some vets refusing to cross that line....After all I chose this profession for two things .....I enjoy it, and most importantly it promised a decent income to allow me to live life.....its always good to remember that clients, once they are done with bringing the pets to the vet, THEY GO AND LIVE LIFE, so should we.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 15:33:46 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Not quite sure where that stat comes from[/quote] google : larger catchment area agreed ! .

My main reasons for not wanting to work 7/7 were actually really selfish ,I have a PVFC season ticket so a saturday lunchtime surgery 1-2 still gives me ample time to deal with any post consulting surgical cases before going to the match . In the Spring and summer I am surrounded by pretty countryside at home and like to walk and cycle in it while on call. I also like to get to the odd T20 cricket match So I am not emptying anal glands on a Sunday afternoon. The staff/employees seem to agree. If that is what is attracting clients, do you need those clients?

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:14:47 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Yes thought so population 9000 [/quote]

Not quite sure where that stat comes from

See http://www.devon.gov.uk/text/census_profile_-_tavistock.pdf there are 9400 people aged 45-64

Tavistock is also a little different to Stoke - agreed.

However to give you some idea I went to Tavistock Comprehensive school, like the vet practice, single vet practice serving the area. The school had 2400 pupils and at the time was the second largest school in the country. Consider that the children travelled maybe a maximum 15 miles then this gives you some idea that maybe it's not quite as small as you think.

Neil

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 13:24:21 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Tavistock as Urban??.[/quote] Yes thought so population 9000 , that is a big village where I come from. How many vets in the area ?

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 13:19:34 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The chip shop analogy doesn't work, firstly because 'have you ever seen one closed in the evening?' that's when people want chips[/quote]

Erm, not if they have already had them for lunch once this week ????. Then it works extremely well . Working all day sunday is not going to increase the number of pets needing your routine surgical skills . The other guy works in a beautiful wonderful part of the country but is having recruitment problems I am in the middle of a post industrial wasteland and regularly drive to work feeling like Mad Max. But we have no recruitment issues. I am not sure I would describe Tavistock as Urban??.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 12:38:03 GMT

[quote user="ALASDAIR MATHIESON"] customer service [/quote] we do not seem to have problems with recruitment in spite of the terrible poverty in the area. Can"t see you so I cannot return the compliment . Customer service is one of those buzz words ,which is fine as long as you do not turn it into a rod for your own back. I have an opinion which is not the same as yours ,that does not make someone wrong or opinionated I would suggest that your a bit "brainwashed" by your own business model. As far as the original example of a rapidly expanding practice in the south west was concerned maybe it was just some very able people in the right place ant the right time? . Your so obsessed with your business models you do not appear to give hard working individuals any credit for their achievements. To some extent the "Brand" has become more important than the skills in the hands of veterinarian ,and i personally think that is a bit of a shame really.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 12:08:27 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Neuterings Dentals , Lumps ? I will watch the chip shop situation carefully , if the shops open 5 days they sell 5x fish and chips ,if its open 7days they still sell 5x fish and chips but over 7 days because people only eat a set amount of fish and chips but the wage bill and other overheads go up. Maybe in the example your quoting there was just a really big hole in the market, some one pops up at the right place at the right time?. Just a very well researched project?. [/quote]

The chip shop analogy doesn't work, firstly because 'have you ever seen one closed in the evening?' that's when people want chips

Secondly this worked 25 years ago. I started in my home practice in Tavistock. Lovely place, but it was the only vet in town. Open 0900-1800 and a few hours on Saturday. The clients had no choice aside drive to Plymouth 15 miles away, so yes that theory works

Today in urban areas there are many choices (Tavistock has several now) If a surgery isn't open when I want it, I simply go to one that is.

I did though think your comment of surgery being the money winner rather than routines was thoughtful and probably right, but your argument agrees with the premise that surgeries wanting to operate at W/E is therefore a good thing, both for clients and your bank balance and it is also maximising the investment of all those lovely toys, and before the argument goes in about dog vaccination clinics not having these, I have worked in many many so called 'dog vaccination clinics' that are very well equipped - ultrasound, digital X-Rays etc, they aren't daft.

Neil

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

ALASDAIR MATHIESON — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 10:10:21 GMT

Culloden, Inverness here - I have to declare an interest, because Sammy82 came to work here three months ago and in a very short period of time has blossomed into a really good vet and team member. We do things our way and it's based on customer service together with staff work/life balance. Recruitment is a major problem, and although we have a promising new graduate starting next month, we are still looking for another vet [ as are many practices in this area ] Sammy picked up on our previous thread " Where are the vets? " Maybe others will do the same, and get in touch. By the way, Grumpyoldman, just because someone thinks differently to you, doesn't mean they're wrong, and what is a " selfish gargoyle "? It's not something/someone I'm familiar with, and you yourself are very opinionated and no oil painting. Just wondered.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 20:56:18 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]There is a saying that goes "If you cannot manage change, change will eventually manage you"....[/quote].

I see your point , so far we have managed but you always need to keep your eye on the horizon.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]looking at starting routine operations on a W/E. [/quote]

Neuterings Dentals , Lumps ? I will watch the chip shop situation carefully , if the shops open 5 days they sell 5x fish and chips ,if its open 7days they still sell 5x fish and chips but over 7 days because people only eat a set amount of fish and chips but the wage bill and other overheads go up. Maybe in the example your quoting there was just a really big hole in the market, some one pops up at the right place at the right time?. Just a very well researched project?.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Nicola Cole — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 20:32:28 GMT

n=2 and anecdote but 2 family members have just had routine NHS consultant check ups/procedures on a Saturday.

I do think most doctors, just like vets, expect some weekend/night/bank holiday work. There may be a bit of a post code lottery as to how well the system works within the NHS but for those areas where the system isn't working just increasing number of hours worked per individual is not going to be the answer.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Nhombokisheni — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 19:40:28 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I wouid agree 100% with that ,the difference is that in the veterinary world ,the private commercial money grabbing corporates will not be able to resist the temptation into turning saturdays and sundays into normal working days to get bums on seats. Its not about service and emergency care its about TPL balance sheets and expanding market share.[/quote]

The thing is, it's coming, like it or not. A practice in the South West area has rapidly gone from 1 to 8 vets within 18 months and the reason is simply that they are offering hours that people want and are looking at starting routine operations on a W/E.

Traditionally we may not like it, but unless we all want to move to France it's coming.

[/quote] Well said. Lifestyle changes in the clientelle over the years cannot be ignored. I believe the choice is between burrying our heads in the sand and ignore the "signs" OR initiate preparatory changes which will allow us to manage the process. There is a saying that goes "If you cannot manage change, change will eventually manage you"....

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 18:29:15 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]the old model is dead me thinks, though I am quite prepared to be corrected.[/quote]

I can only speak from personal experience , been involved in 5 start up projects in the past 30 years ,all successful , my last one in 2011 ,was i have to say harder than before ,needed more prodding to get off the ground . Four years later its turning over 650k pa and growing at 20% a year , opening times 9-6;30 PM MON-fri and sat 1-2pm . no sundays ,emergencies only etc.

its in a very poor depressed area and situated in an off road industrial complex . In the first year I did question my own wisdom but it worked out ok in the end . It was surrounded by corporates , selling vet plans etc , we had a 3 year vaccine interval and pay me when I do something approach . The majority of our income comes from surgical cases ,very little from preventative health care, which probably flies in the face of conventional wisdom. One thing I have learned over the years is that following the crowd can and often does not lead anywhere.

What I cannot answer is how well it would have done if we had opened it 7/7 ? Or whether in fact it would have been the same but the wage costs would have been higher ??. The truth is I was not prepared to work like that and was not prepared to make the staff do it either. I think there are openings still out there but this sluggish start up experience possibly indicates that saturation point is possibly now being reached ?

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 12:38:48 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I think that is more about the fact that when things come up for sale , all the young people are saddled with debt ,and the only ones that can buy are the large corporate chains , in essence its shifting towards a complex monopoly situation.[/quote]

I can only speak for myself, but 20 years ago, my one and only partnership conversation involving financing was a request for £200.000 for goodwill in a practice that I had spent 6 years building up. It was maybe the value of our house. Is it any wonder I didn't go down this route? Larger corporate chains have deeper pockets and are prepared to pay for this to achieve market share, the old model is dead me thinks, though I am quite prepared to be corrected.

Neil

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 12:24:49 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]but unless we all want to move to France it's coming.[/quote]

They are more "protected" in some ways. And with lussac St emillion at 2 euros a bottle in SuperU ,who are also closed on Sundays, it has its attractions.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The career 24/7 vet with their own practice are not so much a dying breed but slipping into the minority. [/quote]

I think that is more about the fact that when things come up for sale , all the young people are saddled with debt ,and the only ones that can buy are the large corporate chains , in essence its shifting towards a complex monopoly situation.

Play time is important ,we all need to enjoy life , but I cannot help thinking that turning yourselves into some kind of doggy quick-fit is devaluing the profession and calling ourselves Dr is not going to somehow revalue it.

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 12:09:36 GMT

I have no problem to practices being open 7 days a week.

Neil Wheadon - as a fellow RVC grad, can you add the 't' into your BVetMed in your signature?

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 11:33:47 GMT

Traditionally we may not like it, but unless we all want to move to France it's coming.

Where these practices do win, is in imaginative shift patterns. In traditional practice, some simply flog themselves to death by expecting vets to work 0800 - 1900 5 days a week. Isn't it any wonder that W/E are terribly precious?

If however you are offered a decent day as this practice does of a 9 hour shift 5 days a weeks then why not open routinely at the W/E. The profession is increasingly filling with vets that want this. The career 24/7 vet with their own practice are not so much a dying breed but slipping into the minority. It's a perfect fit isn't it?

Social events aren't just for the W/E anymore as lots of people are on shifts. Our local cycling club offers group rides Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and it's very pleasant peddling away on a Thursday with everything open, as I expect Sundays will be very soon.

Neil

RE: Human doctors... Hunted?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 18 Jul 2015 11:28:19 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]but we are doing routine appointments including anal glands and boosters.[/quote]

We have a four day week one in four night rota and one weekend in 4 , and we can manage that without doing boosters and anal glands on a Sunday , if your open 9am-7pm mon- Fri and 9-2 on a saturday ,the question " should someone who cannot come at those times have a dog ?" repeats itself , when are they walking it ? Some Sundays we could be working all day with emergency cases anyhow ,and i would not want the duty vet being bugged into hurrying an emergency c/section /splenectomy because some "selfish gargoyle" can't organise their time/life properly and is toe tapping in the waiting room wanting a vaccine at 2:25 on a Sunday afternoon.

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