Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 20:43:26 GMT

Here is a legend from Botswana. A man decided to buy a farm and invested a lot fencing it and stocking it with really nice cattle. The farm was 200miles from his workplace and so he used to go there every three months or so. Over the next three years he lost a lot of his adult animals and the calves just seemed to fade away despite spending thousands on recommended medications. Things got so bad he ended up consulting the "inyanga" (traditional doctor). After narrating his story, the inyanga cast his bones, looked at him and began to shake his head in great pity. "My son," he said. "Your ancestors are very angry with you, infact I have been shown your grave. There is no point in us continuing this consultation" The man begged for help until the inyanga relented, "There is something you can do. You must immediately quit your job and go and live on the farm. For two years you must not leave the farm. I am going to give you this medicine, throw it down the borehole, and everyday you must bath with that water. Follow my instructions and both your life and that of your animals and children will be saved. Disobey and you will all die. After two years come again and then I will tell you how much to pay." The man did as told. By end of year one he had only lost one calf. Encouraged, he stayed on, even bathing twice a day, and in year two he had a big healthy crop of calves and had not lost any animal. As instructed he happily went back at the end of two years to consult again. When he started thanking the inyanga, the "doctor" said,"There is no need to thank me. I dont your ancestors, and frankly I never saw your grave. What I saw was just pure mismanagement and so I had to make that up to get you on the farm. All this succes is down to you. As for the bathing bit...it helped create authenticity" The farmer was completely blown away. This story reveals what many know already.......the majority of farming problems are down to management. Combine practical advice with a "placebo" and you are more than likely to succed. I believe this is how homeopathy works..........focusing on the medication and its effect is a bit myopic because its results cannot be equated to the medication in any scientific way. (sorry I seem to lose paragraphs when I click post"

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:03:30 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

As I see it, the problem with traditional medicine, when employed in traditional societies, is that some of it is actively harmful. Other remedies - like foxglove tea, and mouldy bread, would, when tested be found scientifically valid. The problem is, in that society, the money isn't there to test. No easy answers.

[/quote]To a very large extent I agree but in the example I gave of the Maasai they have been keeping cattle for thousands of years and, like animals that have learned what to eat what not to eat, Darwin's law has generally worked to find the right balance with traditional/herbal medicine. Their current problems have been greatly exacerbated by the disruption of their nomadic lifestyle and the ecosystem by incursion of population and non-nomadic farmers with less resistant cattle onto their traditional grazing land lands.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:52:13 GMT

Wynne

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:44:16 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I am only slightly less of a sceptic when it come to many 'nutraceuticals'![/quote]Well at least there is something in them which is a start and there are some reasonable trials which show they work.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]can we use the same measures for evaluating conventional medicine to evaluate alternative ones?[/quote]

Yes - indeed we have to. Any- and every-thing claiming to be medicine has to be subject to the same level of scrutiny, there should be no special cases.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"] Are we not running the danger of discrediting everything science cannot prove?[/quote]

Only if someone is making a testable claim. People can believe what they want, so long as it begins and ends with them. As soon as they start to externalise those beliefs and claim they have a real influence on the world around us then they must be prepared for scrutiny.

For instance, if people want to believe in a god that's fine by me. Once they start claiming their god is making statues weep blood, that assertion is fair game and can and should be investigated.

Niall

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:39:32 GMT

I am mainly talking memory induced water here. Anyone with a modicum of scientific knowledge would be immediately deeply suspicious of the usefulness of the 'therapy'. Next step is trial work that shows no statistical benefit beyond the placebo.

I am only slightly less of a sceptic when it come to many 'nutraceuticals'!

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:26:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

All forms of therapy deserve respect and interest up to the point that they are discredited by competent agencies. Homeopathy, magic crystals and 'beams' have been shown to lack any scientific basis. This makes them unworthy of consideration until such time as the advocates provide evidence to the contrary IMO.

[/quote] Totally agree. Just to add, traditional medicine uses whole plant extract, just as in homeopathy, the only difference is that traditional practice does not use "dilution". Only one niggling problem.........competent agencies as defined by who........can we use the same measures for evaluating conventional medicine to evaluate alternative ones? The validity of a hpothesis depends on the initial premise.....whose premise do we use...ours or theirs? Are we not running the danger of discrediting everything science cannot prove???

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:09:53 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]The first black Zimbabwean vet was also a renowned herbalist.[/quote]This reminded me of the short time I spent with the Maasai in Tanzania a few years ago observing VETAID projects.

Several things came from that relevant to this post. Firstly was how traditional ethnoveterinary medicine ran alongside conventional therapy such as vaccination where there was a high degree of confidence in its efficacy. This was borne of necessity due to cost constraints and availability as much as anything but it worked well and was not mumbo jumbo magic memory water but based on effective historical practices with herbal medicines

Secondly although there was some faith in the Laibonis (witch doctor) the Maasai were happy to accept our help. Two occurrence demonstrated this. One was a small boy who had fallen and broken his radius and the Laibonis was just applying paper and herbs. We had a doctor and a shed load of medical equipment with us albeit ostensibly for our benefit and they were very happy for him to put on a proper cast.

Another incidence was that of a woman who was dying of malaria and being treated by the Laibonis but we were able to give her IV fluids and proper medication and arranged transport to the nearest hospital 10 hours drive away.

The fact that we were vets and as such already viewed almost as demi-gods by the Maasai, a view which was reinforced with us bringing the first rain for 18 months with our arrival, probably helped but the Laibonis could have suffered a serious loss of face.

The irony of all this is that the Laibonis was more willing to accept conventional medicine, when his reputation could have been damaged, than some supposedly educated homoeopaths back home!

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:15:51 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]All forms of therapy deserve respect and interest up to the point that they are discredited by competent agencies.[/quote]

That depends . Evidence based medicine certainly acts that way - every proposed novel treatment starts with a blank slate and is researched in the same way as any other.

There are some 'therapies' though which have so little basis in the real world and run contrary to so many known principles that to test or continue to test them would be a monumental waste of resources and could actually serve to lend unwarranted credibility by granting them attention they would not normally have had.

A 'therapy' which depends on unscientific or non-real-world principles should be 'guilty until proven innocent' and treated far differently from, say, a new antibiotic, or hormone treatment.

Niall

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:39:05 GMT

Exactly Niall. Some forms of traditional medicine are actively harmful. This thread has drifted (a lot!) There's a world of difference between people who haven't access to modern scientific medicine trying old remedies - some (NB I said SOME not all) of which may work, and a highly qualified professional duping the public (and charging) for "cures" which are proven to be ineffective.

Wynne

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:31:50 GMT

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:17:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I may have got this wrong, but I have the impression that Nhombokisheni is really describing traditional as opposed to alternative medicine.[/quote]

I realise this, but while 'traditional' medicine may deserve respect and interest from a cultural point of view, if someone is making claims for its actual medical effectiveness then it's not entitled to a free ride from science. There are enormous amounts of direct harm done to humans and animals in the name of 'traditional' medicine in various parts of the world and this needs to be confronted in the same way as the practices we regard as alternative medicine should be.

Cheers,

Niall

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:31:16 GMT

I may have got this wrong, but I have the impression that Nhombokisheni is really describing traditional as opposed to alternative medicine. The traditional treatments aren't scientifically proven, but some may work.

After all, in this country an ancient traditional remedy for infected wounds was a poultice made from mouldy bread...........then Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin! Foxglove tea was used for centuries to treat heart failure.........anyone heard of digitalis?

Wynne

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Niall Taylor — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:04:30 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]Any thoughts on this[/quote]

The statements are classic alt med fluff of the 'bait and switch' variety - the idea that science-based medicine may or may not be deficient in some aspects is used to draw people in who are then wrongly persuaded the only solution is alt med.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]"Despite all the efforts of mankind down the ages to manage disease, we have absolutely no idea about life itself. We have amassed mountains of data and tech in conventional medicine, but our efforts have been focused on understanding the physiological, biochemical, anatomical and homeostatic environment in which life exists..."[/quote]

This seems to be a claim that science based medicine is bad because it is reductionist, it breaks systems down for analysis and better understanding. This is a simplistic argument which fails on so many levels, not least because although an understanding of the 'mountains of data' is required to understand the principles of biology and medicine, medicine itself can only work if they are all put together again, along with all the 'total environment' stuff he mentions. Also, much of alt med is itself very reductionist - acupuncture for instance holds that every disease is down to an imbalance in 'Qi', homeopathy makes a virtue of only being concerned with symptoms, not what science-based practitioners would recognise as disease.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]conventional methods are designed to identify departure from “normal” and our treatments seek to restore the “normal environment”[/quote]

A lot of alt med practitioners would describe their methods in exactly this way - 'restoring the normal environment' is pretty much exactly what acupuncturists and homeopaths claim to do.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]I know the power of the mind in disease management and that self resolution is not just a word, infact, the unknown power of life to exist even when conventional knowledge has written off someone boggles the mind[/quote]

Me too, but that doesn't mean alt med is in any way effective

Cheers,

Niall

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 20:50:06 GMT

I agree Michael. While the video in my link supports Arlo in that there are vets out there who are genuinely sold on homeopathy and are practicing this to the exclusion of conventional medicine, what I still graple with is the idea that its not actually the "drug/medicine" that treats the animals.......rather its the "potentiated water molecules" that are supposed to do the job!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:30:43 GMT

Nhombokisheni - your quote seems to describe a combination of the placebo effect, regression to the mean and the body's own intrinsic ability to heel.

I don't think any of us would claim our medicine cured the patient at the exclusion of everything else (in most cases). We are just helping nature and pushing the balance back in the patients favour. Hell a chunk of our antibiotics don't even kill bacteria.

The placebo side is something else I find fascinating. We know that 2 sugar pills are a better analgesic than 1 sugar pill. We know a saline injection is a better analgesic than sugar pills. There was a Derren Brown programme a couple of years ago curing some intense phobias with placebo pills.

The effect is undoubtedly real, and decent quality trials take the effect into account. Simple observational studies with no control may well find the patient recovers with placebo or homoeopathy. Simple regression to the mean.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:44:14 GMT

The first black Zimbabwean vet was also a renowned herbalist. While he was not treating animals, he was casting his bones and treating people. Asked about the possible conflict between the two (one was conventional practice while the other was not), he always used to say, “Despite all the efforts of mankind down the ages to manage disease, we have absolutely no idea about life itself. We have amassed mountains of data and tech in conventional medicine, but our efforts have been focused on understanding the physiological, biochemical, anatomical and homeostatic environment in which life exists. Our conventional methods are designed to identify departure from “normal” and our treatments seek to restore the “normal environment”, and after all is done, we wait to see if life will “stay or depart”. Alternative medicine recognises this shortcoming in medical practice. Health is about the total environment, the lifestyle, the diet, the genetics, the culture and so on. These entities cannot be isolated, and must gel at any one point to enable life to exist. I don’t even know if most of the alternative medicines work as we claim, but I know the power of the mind in disease management and that self resolution is not just a word, infact, the unknown power of life to exist even when conventional knowledge has written off someone boggles the mind. I may not have scientific proof that alternative medicine works, but what I know is there are many people who have lived better lives after treatment.” Any thoughts on this.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:18:05 GMT

Here is an interesting link for your evaluation. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xk45kr_homeopathy-medicine-or-magic_tech Indeed there are people who swear by this form of treatment......just mind boggling how they postulate the way homeopathy works.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:10:33 GMT

Total agreement with Micheal

Wynne

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:01:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]So, you're arguing (I think) that anyone with the degree of training required to be a veterinary surgeon must be aware of the science that disproves, for example, homeopathy; that they know in their heart of hearts that the science that disproves homeopathy is right. They must therefore be acting cynically and dishonestly in offering something they know to be ineffective.[/quote]

Yes. Just take homeopathy out of the discussion for a moment.

If you go back 20 years the profession didn't routinely use painkillers in dogs after routine surgery such as spays. Dogs 'crabbed' out of the surgeries with arched backs and small steps. This was considered normal. I'm sure some vets did use analgesia, but the majority of the profession did not. Quotes like "a bit of pain stops them doing too much".

Time passes, our understanding of pain and concepts behind that increases. We discover that animals can recover faster and be a lot happier if given analgesia pre-operatively and now it simply wouldn't be acceptable not to use analgesia of some sort around painful surgery.

Would/should it be acceptable for me to bury my head in the sand and ignore the overwhelming published and anecdotal evidence that pain relief improves dogs welfare? People were spaying bitches for more years with no analgesia and they were all OK at stitches out.

Unfortunately in veterinary medicine we don't have evidence base for a lot of what we do. The doctors have it a lot better. What is not ok, is ignoring the evidence because it doesn't fit with our perceptions. That is dangerous and animals and people will die. There are people out there who deny HIV virus causes AIDS. They will claim that anti-retroviral drugs are killing people and causing harm. It is estimated something like 400,000 South Africans died because of this stance - ignoring the overwhelming evidence.

Belief that something works (however genuine that belief is) when basically ALL the overwhelming evidence suggests that it doesn't is foolish. I don't think it matters whether you believe that NSAIDs will harm young healthy bitches in for a spay or believe that water can remember things. We are scientists practising a scientific discipline. It's 2015. Accept the evidence and change your views (as I have done many, many times) or get out. I'm not suggesting changing your entire practice based on 1 crappy paper, but when the overwhelming body of evidence suggests you are wrong - you are more than likely wrong.

If a human decides for themselves that they want to be knowingly treated with placebo pills - I don't have a problem with that (so long as it is not sold to them as proper medicine). When we start inflicting this on animals then we get into a whole new ethical area.

"ABOVE ALL, my constant endeavour will be to ensure the health and welfare of animals committed to my care"

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:39:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I believe that they've just persuaded themselves that the science which disproves homeopathy is wrong; that they believe they've seen the evidence of effect with their own eyes and that this overrides the science or concepts like regression to the mean and confirmation bias.[/quote]I think that your take on this explains religious belief and that of those desperate enough as the recipients of homoeopathy either for themselves or their pets but not that of someone who has a brain and a scientific education. But if you are right does that justify say killing somebody because you believe that the reasons you did it were justified? - it is still murder.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Bob Russell — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:36:45 GMT

If it is not dishonesty then it is self-delusion. Not sure which is worse!

I am not for a second saying that conventional treatment is perfect. Not all evidence is presented in a genuine and honest manner. Money definitely talks to pharmaceutical and research companies but everything screams belief when it comes to homeopathy. Research papers say not effective.

A vet selling his or her belief to the public as if it is science is wrong. Wild and unsubstantiated claims on websites about the efficacy of belief based therapies are dishonest or deluded IMO!

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:24:58 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"][quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Why do you accept; not just accept but 'defend' the right of those who have religious belief and yet you don't apply the same courtesy to homeopathy. [/quote]

I don't think the two can be compared in any way. The only way to become a veterinary surgeon for a very long time has to study science at A-level. You then do a science based undergraduate degree. Every single MRCVS should know how the scientific method works. They will all have developed experiments to test hypotheses. They will have done them at school and at college. I can't speak for other colleges and different time periods, but we had to do two research projects during the course - including supporting views with evidence.[/quote]

So, you're arguing (I think) that anyone with the degree of training required to be a veterinary surgeon must be aware of the science that disproves, for example, homeopathy; that they know in their heart of hearts that the science that disproves homeopathy is right. They must therefore be acting cynically and dishonestly in offering something they know to be ineffective.

My argument is that one shouldn't underestimate people's ability to persuade themselves of the veracity of their position (look at Tony Blair and the Iraq war).

I hear the passion with which the proponents of alternative medicine talk about their creed, and I just find it very hard to believe that they're doing it in any way cynically or dishonestly. I believe that they've just persuaded themselves that the science which disproves homeopathy is wrong; that they believe they've seen the evidence of effect with their own eyes and that this overrides the science or concepts like regression to the mean and confirmation bias.

I accept that I might be being naive, but I just don't believe that in most cases there is any dishonesty going on.

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I have been made to feel negligent in not subjecting my son to faith healing , cranial manipulation , homeopathy , and weird and wonderful therapies.[/quote]

You and me both!

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:05:05 GMT

[quote user="Ashley Rubens"]

..............wanted £1200 for a basic aural haematoma operation, and had already sold him some prednisolone 5mg tablets for more than we sell Atopica...

As my friend is a car salesman I did point out that it's probably karma

[/quote]And this vet is probably one of those who gets people through the door with cheap vaccines and consult fees then rips of the gullible clients once they are a captive audience. To some extent these people are victims of their own greed and stupidity for not realising there is no such thing as a free lunch but we still need to have trust in our profession Sadly there are are too many who put money before professional pride and integrity.

As for your friend, I assume he's a used car salesman, new car dealers don't have much of a margin to play with these days.

RE: Are practitioners of alternative medicine exploiting the vulnerable?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:50:08 GMT

The saddest issue in my opinion is the false hope generated which dupes desperate people to pay in order to make them feel they have tried all possible solutions for the individual who they love. Diseases wax and wane, the body heals itself as best it can and homeopathy and other alternative therapies cash in on this.

I have been made to feel negligent in not subjecting my son to faith healing , cranial manipulation , homeopathy , and weird and wonderful therapies. I also have people ask me what conventional medication my son is on and been amazed when I say nothing. If he had been taking a homeopathic treatmentor or a conventional treatment when he said his first word at the age of six , no doubt his remarkable case would have been hailed as anecdotal evidence that it works. He was on nothing and his brain "made the connection " because it developed with time and learning.

it's the nature of humans to look for solutions but as a scientist I cannot justify taking money from people for water . If it's the withdrawal of all treatments allowing the body to heal itself, and the holistic approach to the animal including listening to the owner for a decent length of time , then sell it on that basis not via a fairy story about water molecules having memory .