Greek tragedy

RE: Greek tragedy

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:56:57 GMT

Why anyone thought letting a country with with an exchange rate based on shovelfuls join the Euro, would not end in tears i don't know.

I saw this coming when the Euro kicked off, and my biggest fear was that the Grinning Bliar would march us in as well.

RE: Greek tragedy

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:09:59 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Some shouldn't be allowed entry if they aren't following the rules... [/quote]

Is that Greeks and the euro or Vets and homeopathy??

RE: Greek tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:46:27 GMT

He managed the deal. I now hope them guys manage to pay back, it is only the beggining of the road... but at least they're still on the road.

... the EU should definitely be more 'on the ball' ... don't you think? As it had been mentioned already... Some shouldn't be allowed entry if they aren't following the rules...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33508850

;-)

RE: Greek tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 08:27:22 GMT

Thanks Richard

RE: Greek tragedy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 22:24:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"][quote user="Richard Allport"] that and religion, I suppose![/quote][/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]We agree on something!!! [/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]OMG[/quote]

Anybody see the irony there......

RE: Greek tragedy

Richard Allport — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:45:09 GMT

We probably agree on lots of things, did we but know it!

Richard

RE: Greek tragedy

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:33:48 GMT

[quote user="Richard Allport"] that and religion, I suppose![/quote]

OMG.....We agree on something!!!

RE: Greek tragedy

Richard Allport — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:28:37 GMT

I believe Wynne is right - there is only really one problem in the world and that is over population. Almost all the ailments of the planet stem from that one fact.

Well .... that and religion, I suppose!

Richard

RE: Greek tragedy

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 17:45:06 GMT

The evidence based truth is globally: educate women and the population with stabilize/reduce.

Mariette

RE: Greek tragedy

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 17:37:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

A massive and I mean massive reduction in the birth rate would be by far the most humane method of gradually reducing the population to a sustainable, non-polluting level. Once that had been achieved, there would be a huge increase in the average standard of living.

Wynne

[/quote]

No it would not!

Improve (lower!!) the child mortality rate so children grow to adulthood. Reduce poverty so two children can afford to support two aging parents in their old age. Reduce poverty further and one child can afford to support the parents. Alternatively reduce poverty so adults pay taxes that go into providing state minimum pensions!

China is facing a real time bomb. The one child policy has produced a situation where there is inadequate care available for the aging population.

Could always nuke a few million but that would be a bit messy and is really not a very nice thing to do!

RE: Greek tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 17:25:59 GMT

It's nice to agree. In these circumstances Germany has a moral obligation to forgive the debt. As you say, no more than strict justice.

Wynne

RE: Greek tragedy

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 17:20:23 GMT

Thanks Wynne, I always think you have a great sense of justice,

Mariette

RE: Greek tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 16:27:17 GMT

I know I said I wouldn't comment any further on this thread, but I agree with Mariette on this one. Returning a favour is one thing - robbing people who've nothing to do with the problem is another.

Wynne

RE: Greek tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 16:13:50 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Today the British Chancellor ......

[/quote]

Well.. there is a large difference here. If you tried 'Amigo loan' and went a couple days over... Yes, that's the solution: Austerity.

If your dad lied about your accounts and you discovered the trap five years later.. You might be in a hole so deep that 'austerity' is only going to help you get a better seat at the Last Judgement court... If you believe in it, that is.

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Hey Franco, its been a joy to read your posts on this though. Sorry if I touched a raw nerve......

[/quote]

No need to apologise... It'd be boring if it we weren't a bit 'rough' from time to time ...

But I'd rather you use 'Fran' or 'Francisco' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco#Political_oppression

RE: Greek tragedy

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 16:04:03 GMT

There is a photograph circulating on the internet showing how the Greek prime minister in 1953 signed to cancel Germany's debt so it could start rebuilding its economy.

It's a long time ago, I admit, but still.....

Mariette

RE: Greek tragedy

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 13:13:11 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

So its the 20th very very last chance or else ........again . The germans and french are looking like weak feeble middle class parents failing to control a difficult naughty child in the supermarket, everyone else looks on and knows it needs a slap on the back of the legs and a good telling off. But no one dares in case their is an undercover social worker somewhere or CCTV. So the foul kid ignores them and carries on stuffing chocolates in its face until its sick .

[/quote] Very interesting analogy grumpyoldman. Hey Arloe, was just wondering if you are parceling away some of these gems for future compilation into a book..."The private world of Vetsurgeons". I believe it will certainly jog our memories in old age and brighten the days!!!!!!!!!

RE: Greek tragedy

grumpyoldman — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:58:57 GMT

RE: Greek tragedy

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:26:12 GMT

Franco....I hear you sir. You state, "If you, indeed, have problems to understand the question, I'll try it in simple English: 'Do you want to increase the austerity measures imposed by the Troika even though they have only managed to drown us even further?" Therein lies one of the falsewoods. Today the British Chancellor is expected to announce more austerity measures, despite all the celebrated landmarks achieved so far in turning the British economy round. Other countries had bailouts and today they have paid back, and are continuing to take austere measures to strengthen their economies. There surely must be a reason why the Greeks are "drowning even further" How does produtivity in Greece compare with the rest of the EU......and are the Greeks ready and willing to cut expenditure to the bare minimum, pay taxes efficiently, and make the right priorities for a country teetering on the brink of financial ruin???? My point is this....leaders in the UK have made and are making "nasty" and unpopular decisions on the economy....BUT you know what, results indicate there indeed was and still is a need to cut expenditure. Left to the British people, most of these decision yielding results today would have never seen the light of day. If this were false, Cameroon and co. would be languishing in the pastures of political wilderness, but instead they got relected with a majority. Instead the Greek prime misnister is asking the people...avoiding the responsibility he assumed when elected. I personally do not believe that what the rest of the EU is asking is unique to Greek debt only........ Mr Tsipras knows whats need to be done and must stop posturing and get on with it. If he does get the money I hope he does not spend it on luxuries.......its important to accept that when resources are scarce, the word luxury takes on a new meaning if you really want to turn around. A journey of a thousand miles begins with but one step.....I hope the Greeks take that step sooner rather than when Tsipras is done.... Hey Franco, its been a joy to read your posts on this though. Sorry if I touched a raw nerve......

RE: Greek tragedy

ruths — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 23:54:36 GMT

I've missed you, Franco!

RE: Greek tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 21:39:25 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

I think we are missing something here.....leaders are elected to LEAD, not to hide behind the opinion of the populace who, as I have already said, the majority have absolutely no idea what is in the deal that was rejected.......

[/quote]

Well... let me please, outrageously disagree with your position here:

I (not we) am not missing the point, we would only agree that leaders are elected to lead. But many many manyx1,000 times people had complained that important decisions had been taken out of the hands of the electorate by their leaders. Would you like to ask the great people of Great Britain for instance? They have a lot to say in the matter.

He had to ask his people for two reasons: the first is stated in the paragraph you just read. The second is that that was the only way he could strengthen his position.

In the second part of your sentence you state a fact that many people in many countries have already suggested: that the Greek didn't know what they were voting for. The only problem with it is that it isn't a fact,it is a complete lie. Many of Spanish TV and radio channels are either owned or have a strong influence by political parties: The ones that had supported the German position have used this to discredit the referendum as a main part of their agenda. Even my mum said: 'They don't know what they are voting!', But when I asked, she admitted she hadn't read the question...

If you, indeed, have problems to understand the question, I'll try it in simple English: 'Do you want to increase the austerity measures imposed by the Troika even though they have only managed to drown us even further?'

[quote] .BUT you can make a diagnosis of the sickness and sort it out!!!! Elsewhere comments have been made regarding the shortcomings of the Greeks. ....... Unless the Greeks are willing to face their demons head-on [/quote]

Who's missing the point here? Anyone reading news from 2011 can tell you that they have already 'faced their demons head-on'. Since the Papademous unelected government http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5ddb7b7c-107c-11e1-8010-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3fEwUoU8M, that is what they are doing. The Greek problem is not a new thing, it is in the news now because they have reached a new low... and guess what? With and Under the EU advice.

If you were them and it got you that far... Would you really accept the terms again to come back crying a fourth time because you didn't meet the expectations?

RE: Greek tragedy

Nhombokisheni — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 20:19:27 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Hi colleagues,

So the Greek's themselves voted this new guy and he's doing what he promised to do: He's sacrificing his political career by asking their people first what they want him to do. The Greeks had chosen a very dangerous path, and I don't think they're being lied to. You only chose a path this dangerous when you're desperate, and they are. Would you really have voted this way after a week of 'Corralito' if you weren't?

[/quote] I think we are missing something here.....leaders are elected to LEAD, not to hide behind the opinion of the populace who, as I have already said, the majority have absolutely no idea what is in the deal that was rejected........infact, when you consider that the prime minister actually wrote a letter to the creditors saying otherwise just before the referendum, that speaks volumes. I agree, you cannot continue to milk a sick cow......BUT you can make a diagnosis of the sickness and sort it out!!!! Elsewhere comments have been made regarding the shortcomings of the Greeks. We can feel sorry for them, we can make excuses, the truth remains, Greeks need to face their demons and sort them out. I want this Tsipras guy to address the Greek people about public finances and how an economy runs.........you dont run an economy on borrowed funds. You dont accept people's money then just wish the debt away. Right now his antics have multiplied the debt burden even more. Unless the Greeks are willing to face their demons head-on, the rest of Europe might as well start introducing a "Greek Tax" to keep spoon feeding Greece.

RE: Greek tragedy

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 17:46:14 GMT

I have sympathy with the Greeks too but they had several years to change their ways and haven't been paying their taxes for years. Theres a huge cultural difference in behaviours which must make German Greek discussions extremely difficult. When the Greeks stop flouncing and posturing and actually come up with a way to collect their taxes and pay VAT on tourist islands just as we have to do in Yorkshire national park then maybe there could be some way forward in renegotiating their loans. i don't blame Latvia Ireland etc who have been scrimping to pay their debts feeling aggrieved if Greece gets them written off .

RE: Greek tragedy

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 17:04:57 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]First of all, I'd like to thank Arlo for this massive upgrade of the site.[/quote]

Thank YOU Francisco!

WRT to the Greeks, and bearing in mind that I really don't know what I'm talking about, I understand that they had massaged the books, so to speak, in order to qualify for membership of the Euro, and this only became clear later on in the game.

I can't help feeling that the lender countries themselves must bear some (considerable) responsibility for failing to carry out proper 'due diligence'. What on earth where they thinking?

I also have a huge amount of sympathy for the Greek people. It's all very well and good to criticise the Greeks in general for their huge pension schemes and profligacy. But I agree with you, it's not really the fault of the people, it's the fault of their leaders, a small group of manifestly incapable politicians.

RE: Greek tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:20:44 GMT

Mariette/ Francisco.

My final comment on this matter will be to state I'm very very glad I'm > 60. Younger members can look at the world-wide environment in 30 years time - and decide then if I was right or wrong.

Wynne

RE: Greek tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:13:20 GMT

Hi colleagues,

First of all, I'd like to thank Arlo for this massive upgrade of the site.

Secondly, and not having read all posts, I'll give my opinion about the Greek situation. And I can assure you, it won't be too popular. I'll be happy to be shot down with proper arguments (decreasing Greek's birthrate is not something I'll be considering a 'proper argument', sorry Wynne.)

We all make mistakes, some governors of the Greek people thought that getting Greece in the EU when they didn't have their accounts in order was a good thing, maybe for themselves, maybe for the Greek people: I don't know.

We can all blame the Greek for voting that government some years ago, but the people didn't lie, their government did. They have tried with the so-called austerity but they have found that, not only that makes them unsustainable, but will only keep their foreign markets unable to invest in a country that is economically sick.

Last week, I went to a local restaurant in Spain to eat some lunch. We were the only family there so they kept the air-con off. Many people walked past. When we were just about to finish, two more families entered and they closed the windows and switched the air con on:

- My father wasn't too happy about this and mentioned it. He didn't leave a tip and didn't ask for dessert. I thought he might not want to come back for a long time.

- The waitress said, there's nothing I can do: The boss said to do it this way so we don't spend too much in electricity.

- My mum said: I wouldn't have put the air con on, Even after the new people came in. I wouldn't want to spend money I don't have.

We, the Spaniards, are quite angry about the situation. A very large portion of the debt is to us. And I think austerity is a good idea when is measured.

But after finding that the Greek doctors are the ones working the longest hours in Europe: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/dec/08/europe-working-hours (2011) and this being a lot longer now (even thought non-foreign medicines are not being rationed), many people losing hope: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102395651, amongst many other horrible stories...

Do you really think you should be trying to extract milk from a sick cow by whipping it?