Lord Trees' Bill

RE: Lord Trees' Bill

Minnie — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:00:21 GMT

Good outcome as far as I am concerned - this really was a non starter

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/106153

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 21:25:02 GMT

Minnie ... It is great that you have found that unqualified staff have no issues in the workplace, and that you find the bill pointless. I haven't found that to be the general opinion amongst my nursing colleagues though.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Minnie — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 20:32:25 GMT

If I can chip in from a nurse's perspective.

Contrary to what some of you believe non qualified but experienced staff have absolutely no problem finding jobs. It is the same now as it has been for decades. Yes practices want qualified nurses but their advert may be for 'qualified/trainee/experienced'- advertisers have to hedge their bets because there just aren't enough qualifieds to go around - and until somebody somewhere sees sense and stops mucking around with nurse training that isn't going to change.

I really don't see the point with this bill. The qualification isn't mandatory, it isn't even relevant to some practices - and I suspect it never will be - there is far too much interest for some in keeping a small number of qualified nurses as 'big fish in a small pond'.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 16:39:28 GMT

I've got the endoscope. It's the case load I'd struggle with.

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:54:50 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I get the impression that Evelyn, like myself has a small practice, and tries to do things to the very highest standards he's capable of. Working like this, it's difficult for 1 veterinary surgeon to do the necessary volume of operations - on the other hand, our way might actually give better patient supervision than is given in some high-volume practices.

[/quote]

We have three branches, which work fairly independently of each other. Only the branch I work at is a training practice, we have 2 vets in the morning and 1 in the afternoon and generate enough work to train veterinary nurses. There are a few things we don't have, like an endoscope, and we make arrangements for our students to go elsewhere to see them used. We have in the past had student veterinary nurses from Fitzpatrick Referrals come to us for a couple of days to see some of the more routine procedures.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:41:28 GMT

I thought it all had to be done in-house. That's excellent news if I ever want another RVN.

Thanks

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:40:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]...Working like this, it's difficult for 1 veterinary surgeon to do the necessary volume of operations - on the other hand, our way might actually give better patient supervision than is given in some high-volume practices.[/quote]There is no doubt about this, I might only have 10-15 consultations and 2-3 ops a day but students, nursing and veterinary have always said they actually learn more than in a busy practice because there is time to let them participate and be involved. My last student nurse wanted to stay so badly she said she would pay for me to become a TP. If only it was that simple.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:37:41 GMT

We became and remain a TP and have always been a very small practice...initially one vet. You occasionally have to organise for the nurse to spend a few days somewhere else to cover specific tasks but being quite has its advantages...more time for teaching and the svn gets to casevto themselves!

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:30:54 GMT

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:24:37 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Maybe his practice (like mine) doesn't have the clinical volume to be a training practice. [/quote]Indeed.

The system used to work well in the olden days, then in order for participants to qualify for a student loan my understanding is that the RCVS had to toe the line with the government and make the training course an HNC. This then introduced considerable more expense and layers of bureaucracy which made it not viable for a small practice to continue in the scheme.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:08:05 GMT

Maybe his practice (like mine) doesn't have the clinical volume to be a training practice. My nurse is a proper nurse (RVN) but if I wanted another, I'd have to hire someone trained by another practice. I'm all for RVNs, and, hopefully as the qualification becomes more common, then it will become easier for small practices to recruit.

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:02:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

they will start with a low salary, and if they are a good nurse it will increase through their career. It is very hard to take a pay cut, particularly if you have financial commitments such as rent/mortgage or childcare costs.

I have no doubt that you are a good employer, but if your staff want or need to move jobs they will find it more difficult than if they were RVNs.

[/quote]This is all true but what you're forgetting is that they have a job in the first place to make the choice. if people like me were not giving them the opportunity I do they wouldn't have this choice to make. Catch 22.

[/quote]

But why don't people like you give them the opportunity to become RVNs? Then they wouldn't be stuck in that position either. I know it's a lot of work (I was a clinical coach for a while), and there are aspects of the course that aren't ideal, but I much prefer to work with nurses who've been taught the theory behind the practice in a structured way.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:49:49 GMT

The ones who 35 years ago were breaking the law by referring to RANAs as "nurses" would have the devil's own cheek to prosecute anybody else for an almost identical offence. I stuck out and insisted on calling them kennnelstaff.

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:45:38 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I would tend to agree that a supplemental register would be a good idea. This could set out what future cpd requirements need to be met.

The difficulty would be ensuring some consistency to the standards of those being registered. Not insurmountable but some form of 'green book' listing skills required for entry.

[/quote]

What I want to see is something much simpler. Do not remove the right to describe themselves as "veterinary nurse" from those who are already perfectly legally earning their living under that description. If you see that as a problem just remember that the passage of time will inexorably remove the problem.

A Supplementary Register, to me, by analogy with the 1966 Act, seems to imply that those upon it would have the same mini-vet rights as the RVN (suturing wounds and all that stuff).

[quote user="Bob Russell"]A good way to give recognition to those highly motivated and capable individuals in practice. They would not become RVN's but perhaps go back to the term RANA?[/quote]

Oh no.... invent RANAs again if you like, that's a different debate, but please just let people who are veterinary nurses now continue to use that description without getting prosecuted.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 11:25:28 GMT

RCVS Council have done so in the past. Admittedly the individuals who managed it then are now dead and gone.

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 11:20:14 GMT

I would tend to agree that a supplemental register would be a good idea. This could set out what future cpd requirements need to be met.

The difficulty would be ensuring some consistency to the standards of those being registered. Not insurmountable but some form of 'green book' listing skills required for entry.

Obviously it would have to be a closed list within a certain period.

A good way to give recognition to those highly motivated and capable individuals in practice. They would not become RVN's but perhaps go back to the term RANA?

Not the same as RVN's but good in a different way. Not sure I could trust the powers that be to sort the system out!

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:43:09 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

I have no doubt that you are a good employer, but if your staff want or need to move jobs they will find it more difficult than if they were RVNs.

Alice my head (unqualified) nurse is already earning more at 23 than many qualified nurses and her salary will continue to rise when I can afford it. You can't say this is a bad thing just because if she has to move on she will earn less.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:24:27 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]That is probably true, but would they have to take a pay cut? I don't know what you pay your staff, but student veterinary nurses are often employed on minimum wage.[/quote]True but that is their choice. I can't quite see what you're driving at other than they will come to realise veterinary nursing in many practices is a shit profession and I've been spoiling them.

[/quote]

I think the point I'm getting at is that if they start their employment in a training practice they will probably start on a low salary, but with the benefit of the practice paying their training costs. Then once they qualify their wages will increase, and if they then take on a more senior position such as head nurse, or supervising student veterinary nurses, their wages will increase further. So they will start with a low salary, and if they are a good nurse it will increase through their career. It is very hard to take a pay cut, particularly if you have financial commitments such as rent/mortgage or childcare costs.

I have no doubt that you are a good employer, but if your staff want or need to move jobs they will find it more difficult than if they were RVNs.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:14:46 GMT

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

bob lehner — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:00:11 GMT

Absolutely - being unqualified they'd likely go to the bottom of the heap if the wanted to start formal training somewhere new.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:51:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Consider Martins practice. Martins going to retire at some stage, so what of his nursing staff .They will be severely disadvantaged from not being an RVN and may have trouble finding a position that is equivalent. In terms of progression within Veterinary Medicine

[/quote]

Oh contrare! They will be at the head of the queue for those applying at a training practice because they have a huge head start from the practical knowledge they have accumulated.

[/quote]

That is probably true, but would they have to take a pay cut? I don't know what you pay your staff, but student veterinary nurses are often employed on minimum wage.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:07:24 GMT

Yours and Evelyn's would be those who (under my plans) would be eligible for the Supplementary Veterinary Nursing Register.

Wynne

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:03:24 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Consider Martins practice. Martins going to retire at some stage, so what of his nursing staff .They will be severely disadvantaged from not being an RVN and may have trouble finding a position that is equivalent. In terms of progression within Veterinary Medicine [/quote]Oh contrare! They will be at the head of the queue for those applying at a training practice because they have a huge head start from the practical knowledge they have accumulated.

When I employ trainees they are as often as not girls who have tried to get in a training practice but have been turned down because they have no experience/there are just not enough places. In part answer also to Michael's later post, I used to be a training practice but when they irrevocably moved the goalposts it became impractical/non-viable to continue as a sole charge practice. I won't labour the point again, and there has been a mixed bag. but most of the nurse I have trained have for me at least been as good as the trained nurses I have employed in the past. They are all told the score and that if they want to move on later they will as suggested have gained invaluable experience. However their experience with me will tell them if this is the career they really want to pursue without losing a year or more of their lives training and finding out it isn't. Several have indeed moved on and up, one to the very highest echelon and became president of the BVNA and credited me with instilling in her her core values and experience. A number have stayed for a decade or more then retired to raise a family or move to another career. Heck they are not even badly paid one earned £19.5 K last year at 23.

I know that this is as Gilian suggested personal and there are plenty of bad eggs who don't nurture their nurses as well as I do but I think that mine deserve to be called just that - nurses, it would be a shame for a piece of paper to deny them that.

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 00:03:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Maybe Martin is the clever one?[/quote]

Yes you might be right

Thanks for replying rather than slinging a red star, though quite excited, my first!!

Neil

Re: Lord Trees' Bill

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 30 Jun 2015 23:59:12 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]However Martins going to retire at some stage, so what of his nursing staff if he does indeed turn it into a block of flats. They will be severely disadvantaged from not being an RVN and may have trouble finding a position that is equivalent. In terms of progression within Veterinary Medicine , forget it[/quote]

100% devils advocate here, but:

You make it sound like this is a disadvantage. I know a number of vets thoroughly pissed off that they train nurses, they qualify and then they leave.

Maybe Martin is the clever one?