Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

janine redman — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:20:13 GMT

having attended the sports medicine symposium at the NAVC this year there is an increasing number of veterinary surgeons using both stem cell therapy and platelet rich plasma infusions for arthritis. In some of the studies canine patients with end stage DJD in hips and stifles were treated and improved on gait analysis for somewhere between 3 months and 2 years. Platelet rich plasma infusions had been tried in conditions like glenohumeral ligament damage and synovitis. Early studies appear to show a beneficial effect. Being old enough to remember injecting blood into stifle joints of cruciate injury dogs I find it fascinating and am watching research with interest and an open mind.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Richard Allport — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 21:05:53 GMT

Thanks Silvia, much appreciated.

Richard

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Silvia Maldonado — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 03:00:25 GMT

[quote user="Richard Allport"]

I have a client who is really keen to have this procedure for her arthritic Chow Chow. Does anyone know the nearest practice that carries this out - she lives in Holland park, London? Any information would be appreciated.

Richard Allport

[/quote] I don't know where you are based, but Boness veterinary hospital does it. It's in Bedfordshire.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Julian Earl — Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:05:19 GMT

Thanks for the PM Roger, you have my reply.

Regards.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:29:19 GMT

My last word on this in this thread (I have used the tangent feature for anyone else who wants to continue. You can see how the tangent feature has worked in the last post at the bottom of this page of this thread).

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"][quote user="Richard Allport"]Roger, I think you're wasting time on replying to comments about homoeopathy.[/quote]Hopefully you're right then we won't have to read this crap on here. Its amazing how 99.9% of medically/veterinary trained professionals think its snake oil yet you continue to insult our intelligence. The problem is you will continue to exploit the vulnerable and desperate because they know no better. Shameful.[/quote]

[quote user="Richard Allport"]See what I mean about personal abuse, Roger? I think it is shameful to write such abusive comments about a fellow veterinary surgeon, Martin.[/quote]

I tend to side with Richard on this one.

I have no doubt that practitioners of homeopathy believe that homeopathy works. Therefore they are not exploiting anyone. To accuse them of exploiting the vulnerable is in my view out-of-order and the sort of thing that is not in keeping with this forum.

For the sake of accuracy, it was Bob that first dropped the H-bomb , not Roger or Richard, though Roger did rise to the taunt in a way that seemed about as tactful as running into a synagogue waving a pork chop above his head.

[quote user="Richard Allport"] After receiving personal abuse from a member of this forum regarding my use of homoeopathy I almost stopped posting on this site altogether and I certainly wouldn't answer any posts on the subject again. [/quote]

I for one think that it would be a great loss if you did stop posting. I think my views on homeopathy are well known (I don't believe it), but I think it would be a big mistake to dismiss everything else a homeopathic practitioner says just because of that (I don't believe in God either, but if I ruled out everything I'd ever heard from believers, I wouldn't be left with an awful lot!).

Secondly, I do think you should be challenged on the subject (not especially because you practice homeopathy; I mean homeopathy should be subjected to the same sort of challenge that any treatment should be subjected to. That's science), and the way to do that is not to sit here taking the piss, but to ask you challenging questions.

Back to stem cells. If you want to go off on a tangent to stem cells, use the tangent button or (until we get the iPad thing fixed), start a new thread.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:37:44 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

This thread is about stem cells in the treatment of OA in dogs.

It's not about homeybleedinopathy.

Any more homeopathy on this thread will be deleted.

[/quote]

I'm surprised you tolerated it for so long Arlo. I thought the H word had been sent to the sin bin along with RMB a long time ago.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:34:49 GMT

I would be delighted to be able to offer homeopathic treatment with a clear conscience and have little problem with owners trying this route but not at a cost to the patient.

I have clear recollection of a nightmare night spent awake with a fitting patient. It dies at 7am! The homeopathic vet (not Roger) had been ignoring the worsening seizure pattern. Strangely the owner did not disturb him at 11pm when the seizure crisis started!

I don't think naming names on a forum is helpful but using any product that has not been properly tested in clinical trials as if they have been is decidedly dodgy. Why is homeopathy excluded from cascade? Presumably because it is not considered to be medicine.

Get the evidence and I will tackle it with an open mind. Keep presenting poor studies and I will remain sceptical and anti!

Anything offered by a veterinary surgeon to the general public will be given a degree of respectability.

Arlo posted as I was writing this!!

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:24:31 GMT

STOP IT!

NOW.

This thread is about stem cells in the treatment of OA in dogs.

It's not about homeybleedinopathy.

I've spent a small fortune building new features on this site, like the tangent feature (options menu, on the right hand side) which allows you to start a new thread going off on a tangent.

Granted it isn't entirely finished yet (we're looking into why it doesn't work on an iPad, and we are adding reverse links too). But let's get into the habit of staying on topic. I will now start a tangent where you can continue this thread, starting with Michael's post.

Any more homeopathy on this thread will be deleted.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Richard Allport — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:16:03 GMT

Martin, my only contributions to this thread have been asking if anybody knew of a vet offering stem cell therapy as a client of mine is interested in the treatment, and then suggesting Roger was wasting his time in answering comments on homoeopathy. Hardly hi jacking the thread, I think. And then you post personal abuse. The remark about not encouraging trolls is very odd, since it came from one.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:56:56 GMT

[quote user="Richard Allport"]

See what I mean about personal abuse, Roger? I think it is shameful to write such abusive comments about a fellow veterinary surgeon, Martin.

[/quote]Amazing then how both my post and Bob's got 5 gold stars, I think the word 'fellow veterinary surgeon' is rather stretching the limits of credibility! However, Arlo is right, you and Roger have hijacked this thread for your own agenda so this is the last you will hear from me, I don't want to encourage Trolls.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Richard Allport — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:26:53 GMT

See what I mean about personal abuse, Roger? I think it is shameful to write such abusive comments about a fellow veterinary surgeon, Martin.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:38:35 GMT

I don't just stand behind my PC at home. I have been through many studies and my conclusion is that homeopathy is bullsh*t science.

I admit I am not going to attend CPD on the subject until I have seen good, balanced studies. I have not seen a single one that would pass scrutiny.

I fully accept that conventional medicine is fraught with poor studies and potential adverse reactions. This is one reason why the people in control of these medications have medical degrees.

Justifying homeopathy on the grounds of problems with conventional medicine shows the weakness of the arguments.

I accept that many clients may be made happier by seeing a homeopath, that is not justification IMO for pretending that something genuinely works.

Animals failing to receive proper medical treatment as a result of homeopathic mumbo-jumbo is unacceptable to me. Thankfully our local homeopath seems comfortable offering a balance between the two! That I can live with.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:05:57 GMT

[quote user="Richard Allport"]Roger, I think you're wasting time on replying to comments about homoeopathy.[/quote]Hopefully you're right then we won't have to read this crap on here. Its amazing how 99.9% of medically/veterinary trained professionals think its snake oil yet you continue to insult our intelligence. The problem is you will continue to exploit the vulnerable and desperate because they know no better. Shameful.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:45:49 GMT

We're going off on a tangent here!

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Julian Earl — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:37:58 GMT

Roger, pleasecould you explain how aRMB-diet prevents wear and tear in joints? I can accept the importance of weight control for all sorts of reasons, but of dogs are heavily-weighted [no pun intended.] towards joint disease for all sorts of reasons unrelated to diet. I cannot see how RMB helps counterbalance the genetics of hip dysplasia or OCD, or with those breeds susceptible to cruciate ruptures. Am I missing something?

Thanks in anticipation.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Roger Meacock — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 23:28:28 GMT

Hi Richard.

Yes you're probably right. Funny how they're so brave behind their PC/Mac at home but couldn't take up the challenge to come to the open day at BAHVS Conference to learn about the research that is starting to prove how homeopathy works, or to see the successful case studies. Many of those sceptics who registered didn't even have the common decency to cancel but just didn't turn up.

Of course if we took the same attitude that a few failed cases condemns a whole discipline I don't think there'd be any vets left on the register at all. I don't know of anything that "works" in 100% of cases, or anyone who gets the right prescription first time in 100% of cases either. Strange that it never occurs to a sceptic that the ones they don't see who have turned to homeopathy or another alternative don't need to be seen again because they've found something else that works! Of course these are the ones we see again.

I'm not sure how homeopathy came into the discussion on stem cell treatment for arthritis but it wasn't me who brought it up. I was being so good too and had resisted the temptation to point out that if cats and dogs were fed a proper RMB diet in the first place there wouldn't be so much arthritis to treat!!!

Cheers

Roger

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Richard Allport — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 16:42:32 GMT

Roger, I think you're wasting time on replying to comments about homoeopathy. After receiving personal abuse from a member of this forum regarding my use of homoeopathy I almost stopped posting on this site altogether and I certainly wouldn't answer any posts on the subject again.

Richard

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 14:38:56 GMT

I'm sorry, Roger, but it's just too easy to bait people who believe in such ludicrous things as water having a memory and the ability to deliver oxygen to living tissues through the oral route. I also think I must have missed the lecture at college where we learnt how to "correct the internal body terrain to cure allergies".

http://naturalhealingsolutions.co.uk/products/aerobic-oxygen/

http://naturalhealingsolutions.co.uk/products/quinton-marine-plasma/

I have no problem with individuals believing in anything they want - whether that is religious, personal, sexual orientation, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or even homeopathy. It's 2015. Professional veterinary surgeons need to practice evidence based medicine where they can. They need to be critical of the information available and adjust their practices accordingly.

Time and time again homeopathy has been subjected to meta analysis and RCT and shown either not to work, or to work no better than the placebo/nocebo effect. It would be so easy and cheap to test these products against current treatment modalities - if they work as the advocates say - then do it. It's not hard and it doesn't have to be expensive.

I've seen a number of animals harmed via the use of homeopathic treatment at the exclusion of conventional treatment - arthritic dogs taken off effective analgesia, the worst was a dog I euthanased where they were treating its mites using shaken water - the dog was chewing its own flesh off.

Unless a good chunk of quality evidence is brought to light to show how something scientifically impossible can work then I honestly believe taking clients money for these treatments is fraudulent and should lead to a charge of professional misconduct. It is my honest opinion that the profession would be better without these 'quacks' treating animals.

I also think it is incumbent on people practising conventional medicine to keep up to date and at least offer the client the current 'best' treatment. I appreciate it is a harsh view point, I'm unsure how it fits with the 'rules' that we have to be nice, but I think this issue is of vital importance.

We've pandered to these 'alternative' practitioners for too long in both the veterinary and the medical fields.

Really, Roger, I think the only reply to a lot of this rubbish is silly pictures, pointing how quite how absurd some of your views are. Sorry.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Roger Meacock — Sat, 11 Jul 2015 13:03:49 GMT

Posting humorous pictures and cartoons really has little bearing on the homeopathy debate. There are just as many similar pictures regarding how many people are killed by adverse reactions to correctly prescribed pharmaceuticals etc. I agree there are some poor papers out there regarding homeopathy just as there are poor papers for more conventional practices too. However poor papers in either field does not negate the good ones, however few you may think there are.

You don't know me or what I do well enough to judge me on anything I do, let alone my professionalism. You don't do what I do so you won't see the results that I see or get the feedback that tells me something that you don't believe in has worked. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to pass judgement on you personally because I don't know you or your work. I stand up for what I know to be right and just because you don't agree with me on some things doesn't make either of us wrong or unprofessional - sometimes there is more than 1 way of doing something. I recognise that some conventional approaches are necessary and at present there are no alternatives to them in which case I recommend clients go to somebody better qualified to work in that way than me. I don't think that's unprofessional. I also recognise that there are some very good alternatives to some conventional practices and that is what I offer and why people turn to me, frequently when more conventional options have failed or are offering little hope of success. There is nothing unprofessional in that either.

As Arthur Schopenhauer said "All truth passes through 3 stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident". Some of what I do hasn't yet reached the 3rd stage here in the UK although in some other countries it has.

And as Ghandi said "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth".

I suggest we get back to the original thread of this topic ... on stem cells.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 17:25:41 GMT

[quote user="Roger Meacock"]Well if you don't read the right research you won't form the right opinion!!

[/quote] I was going to just leave it to Bob's and Michael's replies. But I have to add that the more you believe in something Roger the less credibility it has. I'm a fair person, I defended you when someone made an unfounded comment but you know that all you will do is dig yourself a bigger hole, some of the stuff you spout is very close to, if not, unprofessional. But then we know you love to play Devil's Advocate with us.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:51:31 GMT

I'm sad I have to stop this and go on a call

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:50:10 GMT

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:49:03 GMT

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:48:38 GMT

No good homeopathic papers around. Plenty of attempts to make dodgy research look good but as yet no good references at all. I have checked plenty of the garbage that homeopaths have presented in legitimate journals purporting to be evidence. None of it would pass proper independent scrutiny.

RE: Use of stem cells in treatment of OA in dogs.

Roger Meacock — Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:44:59 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

For someone so involved with homeopathy my reaction is:

"Pot calling the kettle black!"

[/quote]

Don't worry Bob there are good references for good homeopathic papers too! The research is certainly moving forward to help identify the mechanism for how homeopathy works, although not knowing how exactly it works doesn't prevent it being used very effectively, as many of the vets using it find on a regular basis.