How low does the profession have to go?

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bob Russell — Mon, 29 Jun 2015 09:07:41 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Only had one side of the story of course[/quote]

I think that's the important point here.

[/quote]

Only had one side of the story of course

I think that's the important point here

[/quote]

But from informed owners. They are breeders so do have quirky ideas but I did expect more sense from them!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

J G Wray — Sun, 28 Jun 2015 12:19:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Only had one side of the story of course[/quote]

I think that's the important point here.

[/quote]

Only had one side of the story of course

I think that's the important point here

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Silvia Maldonado — Sun, 28 Jun 2015 03:10:10 GMT

Of course! and 1:100.000 of vodka as a premed!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Laura Kidd — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:45:17 GMT

Surely this is a supersession issue and RCVS should be approached for advice/ informed? These dogs should not be having this procedure done by another VS unless you have referred to them; or they have contacted you to discuss ( ask permission) /get clinical records.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bob Russell — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:17:32 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Only had one side of the story of course[/quote]

I think that's the important point here.

[/quote]

Important but the crux of the matter is that this is all being done 'in secret' and it is absolutely clear that risks and lack of aftercare are being ignored by the perpetrators. My two patients were put at serious risk through the combination of owner stupidity (accepted by them!) and someone earning money by cutting corners. Unsupervised ACP is potentially very dangerous.

There are reasons why it has been banned for pets travelling by air!!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bob Russell — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:11:16 GMT

Not the New Forest Area but somewhere near Portsmouth.

I am not going to get into a fight over people doing a budget job with health schemes. We could not compete on price unless we dropped our standards to a quick jab of heavy dose ACP. Get owners to hold the dog so they get the radiation dose, not us, then send them home to crash under ACP once the stress of being X-ray'd was over.

Proper veterinary care, adequate sedation together with some degree of ethics then I will accept the competition.

The fact that few breeders volunteer the information to their vets makes me think they know it is dodgy. Clients are all too happy to let us know when they think they have a bargain! Are owners keeping quiet when things do go wrong?

I wonder what VDS would have to say on the matter!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

CatherineThomas — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 08:15:56 GMT

I've also had a breeder client tell me that she took her dogs down to the new forest area to have them hip scored and they were done without sedation and owners holding them down. This was a few years ago and a breeder from Suffolk who made regular trips down there to get all of her dogs done.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

grumpyoldman — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 00:19:24 GMT

There are all sorts of Cardiology gurus seeing your breeder and show clients at group meetings and scanning hearts etc without your permission and they often just give the report to the client to bring in if they feel like letting you know they have been involved . These people are bargain hunters ,their only purpose is getting something done for as little as possible. Its scruffy and cheapens the profession . They will probably get away with it until their is a disaster involving a high value dog that is also a pet that gets dragged along by the breeder .

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Vet2Vet — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:17:41 GMT

Totally agree Clive in all but the lowest risk Category

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:06:00 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

What's a pastoral breed?

[/quote]

one that gives spiritual guidance

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:58:48 GMT

What's a pastoral breed?

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

John Flynn — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:51:05 GMT

I reckon PennHip is a more useful breeding tool than the extended hip view schemes that exist; hopefully when it becomes a bit more available (albeit a bit more commercial at the same time...) it will catch on a bit more:

http://info.antechimagingservices.com/pennhip/navigation/training/upcoming-training-dates.php

Ultimately any health-related breeding screening scheme is only as good as what the information is ultimately used for (i.e. it's down to those doing the breeding)...

... but the introduction of more sound genetic selection methods such as actually considering information from relations as well as just an individual animal's phenotype would be a start for those actually planning to use the information to genuinely breed healthier pet-dogs. When was the last time you heard of a stud-dog's EBV that was based on the sort of info a new pet-owner might be interested in such as longevity, dermatological/otic health and long-term mobility?

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:40:13 GMT

Surely this has to be RCVS and possibly RSPCA material?

specifically;

1. The law is being broken in that the radiological protection legislation is being breached by allowing members of the public to hold the dogs.

2. Lack of OOH care provision

3. No communication with owners usual veterinary surgeons

4. The animal welfare issue of dogs being transported, sometimes hundreds of miles, in hot vehicles after (alledgedly) receiving high doses of ACP sedation and possibly being discharged before they are fully recovered and therefore unfit to travel.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:14:02 GMT

The buck stops with the vet! Of course a highly trained NHS radiographer is likely to get good views. BVA X-rays are not rocket science!

I repeat that with my clients:

There was no request for histories so previous issues could not be communicated.

There was no consent form (BVA form only) apparently stating risks etc.

No clinical examination

No vet present during the X-ray process.

40 patients sedated under the care of one vet even if not all on the premises simultaneously, is far more than I would consider safe.

No post procedure instructions and a phone number that goes unanswered!

Marilyn may be the bees-knees but the set up is a recipe for disaster IMO. However until owners start to be more realistic about what they will get for £70 then this will continue!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:11:32 GMT

If the veterinary surgeon was flying over to sign the forms, then who was administering the ACP?

I'm confused!

Wynne

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Rosemary Cowper — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:02:58 GMT

I have heard a lot about Marilyn, the "human radiographer" who X-rays hips under ACP only. The owners hold the dogs during the procedure. She charges around £70 plus the BVA fees. As far as I know there is a vet around who signs the forms and administers the sedation. I bought a puppy eight years ago and her parents' hip scores were given to me at the time of purchase. The vet who had signed the forms came from the Isle of Wight so I expressed surprise that the breeder had taken her dogs there for X-rays. Apparently, this vet flew over to Southampton regularly to sign the submission forms. This set up has concerned me for a long time. The radiological protection legislation is being breached by allowing members of the public to hold the dogs, ACP is not adequate to get sufficient relaxation for hip X-rays ( in my opinion) and the quality of the images produced is mediocre ( again in my opinion). I have often wondered about asking the RCVS about my concerns. Maybe the facts that dogs have been badly affected by the sedation as mentioned on this forum might give the impetus required.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:47:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Only had one side of the story of course[/quote]

I think that's the important point here.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Aisling McGrath — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:02:33 GMT

"Oh my god. Read this... then started googling, and found a few select comments on petforums.co.uk

"The current man knows nothing about drug sensitivity in the pastoral breed, and after being told, then gave 2 dogs a drug that knocked them out for 10 hours! I think that if they hadn't had such a knowledgable owner they may not have made it! Then put the wrong chip number on the pictures so that they weren't scored! Useless!
After such a frightening and dreadful experience, there is one owner who has sworn never to risk and get another dog scored, which is a shame."

"The beginning of this year and they are still waiting for one of the results, which they were told would arrive last weekend, a week later than the other one due to the wrong chip number being entered. I suspect they may have to wait for the next panel to sit, which is not good for a Champion dog waiting to be used at stud.

The owner, who is medically trained, is devastated at the experience. They can't speak highly enough of Marilyn but..........
I still think that it's the best place for hip scoring x-rays but if you have a pastoral breed, then that the owner needs to have the very latest information, both brand names and generic names, of the safe drugs to be given."

"Nice manner maybe but he didn't know about the drugs he shouldn't give and didn't even give the owners the details and doseage that he had given! So if they'd stopped on their 2.5 hour journey home and found a vet, they didn't know how much the dogs had been given. They only knew the name of the drug because they wrote it down on the banned drug list and that's frightening when you're on the motorway with 2 dogs whose breathin is slowing, rapidly losing body temperature and not even anyone at the end of the phone.

But apparently they will now make sure that it doesn't happen again..... and they're still waiting for one of the results.......

I still think that Marilyn is the best. I'm just suggesting that anyone with a pastoral breed who may or may not be sensitive, should make sure that the sedative that their dog is given is suitable. "

Scary stuff!!!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 16:31:56 GMT

Years ago when i was still doing HD scheme Xrays, there was a place where all the breeders went, because they did them under sedation and got lower scores..........

You work it out.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bibs — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:49:09 GMT

Yeah their facebook page looks busy with breeder types, but there are lots of posts saying nobody picks up the phone.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:37:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]As an aside I tried to get them to do a pennhip rather than BVA scheme! [/quote]Aha...my friend Mike Guilliard is the man to go to for Penn Hip.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:26:45 GMT

The clients were given no information at all. No contact number for emergencies and had I been faced with a collapsed dog I would have had to guess the medication. They contacted the phone number on Monday and were told the drug used was ACP!

It is rare that I discover a new low that some veterinary 'colleagues' will stoop for money but it has happened. How many of these dogs are ending up with emergency treatment? The cheapness of the 'service' and the tightness of many breeders make this a marriage made in heaven!

No wonder there is no paper trail!

Perhaps the BVA should be looking into how hip X-rays 'arrive' on their doorstep. As an aside I tried to get them to do a pennhip rather than BVA scheme!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:10:54 GMT

Wow, their FaceBook page is busy and popular!

They do roughly 4 days a month, so it must be a nice litter earner.

I bet a lot of us have clients who know about them but don't let on!

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Clive Ansell — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:45:30 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Found out via our one and only breeder that their dog has a severe reaction to ACP!

Turns out that they had a hip score done on a Saturday under ACP sedation. A certain homeopathic vet gave the sedation but apparently had about 40 dogs to supervise!

[/quote]

What is their provision for OOH care in the event of such a complication?

I am fairly sure, 3 or 4 years ago, I have dealt with the same cowboys. I was doing a locum in kent and we had a GSD breeder who takes her dogs somewhere on the south coast, she did say it was 160 miles away but refused to say where. The distance would place that in or near the Bournemouth area. The dog we saw was collapsed and hyperthermic after its post sedation 160 mile and 3 to 4 hours car ride. It had that day had ACP only sedation and the client held the dogs legs while the x-ray was taken !! We gave emergency treatment, cooled it down, gave fluids, and the dog was fine. The client was dismissed soon afterwards after a dispute over the bill; her cheapo hip dysplasia rads turned into an expensive day, not to mention the cost of driving 320 miles! I did speak with the practice owner about contacting the RCVS, but I don't think she did.

Re: How low does the profession have to go?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:32:16 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"] I would argue that a well planned, performed and monitored GA would be far safer.[/quote]+1