Praise for the Left.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:12:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Boko Haram in Nigeria.[/quote]Boko Haram is the name of a group not an individual so we can now add Isil, Al Qaeda, indeed virtually any fanatical religious group including the Catholics and the Crusaders, the Romans and virtually every nation state that has ever existed - the British were hardly innocent and we just come back in a full circle to our innate survival instincts and tribalism just on a globalised scale.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:43:29 GMT

The 3 I mentioned were the worst 3 of the 20th century. If Luca wants to go back in history, there were the French Revolutionaries, who beheaded people just because they owned land - and who ended up with someone much much worse - Napoleon, who caused extended conflict over a great deal of Europe.

In modern times, Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Wynne

Re: Praise for the Left.

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:15:07 GMT

And I haven't mentioned the obvious Mussolini in the list...

Re: Praise for the Left.

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:11:55 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]Of course the list is unavoidable biases, as history is written by the winners, though because victims are different from us aren't less important.[/quote]Too true. Winston Churchill sanctioned a few avoidable massacres but could justify it by the excuse that sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice the few to save the many. Indeed my signature below is very apt in situations like this..

Re: Praise for the Left.

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:27:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Sorry for turbo posting. I've just googled the worst dictators of all time.

They are

1) Moa Zedong - responsible for deliberately killing an estimated 49 to 78 million people

2) Stalin- responsible for deliberately killing 23 million people

3) Hitler - responsible for deliberately killing 17 million people

3 very very evil men - 2 Communists and a Socialist.

Wynne

[/quote]

Well the list seems lacking of many a few of the worse one... I would at least add to the list Bokassa I (renowned for the habit of eating his political oppositors), Pol Pot, Milosevic, the kings of Spain that promoted the massacre on native population in South America and a few president of the USA for the holocaust of North American Natives, and most of the Russian Tzars. Of course the list is unavoidable biases, as history is written by the winners, though because victims are different from us aren't less important.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 08:50:20 GMT

They're equally horrible.

Wynne

Re: Praise for the Left.

Silvia Maldonado — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 02:02:14 GMT

Charming Psychopath who took revenge on Jewish after his mother's doctor didn't save her from a breast tumour. Even when one of his grandparents might have had a dubious "arian" blood in his veins.

Bullfighting is tolerated because it happens in a developed country. Is it less brutal than the fights between bears and dogs in the Middle East? Which one sounds more horrible?

Re: Praise for the Left.

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 22:21:03 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

The Spanish left will ban the Corrida not because they respect animals but because they hate traditional Spain. Given the chance they'd probably like to close the churches and massacre the clergy as well but they tried that in '36 and it didn't work out too good for them.

[/quote]

Im not that keen in massacre the clergy... at the end of the day they were only used to brainwash large part of our population, along with banning any sort of movie, book, newspaper, etc capable of condoning revolution. But do you Really think Im not proud of the best part of my cultural heritage?

Re: Praise for the Left.

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 19:11:35 GMT

So Ed Milliband with a tash then really !. My father often came home from the pub waxing lyrical on the virtues of a misunderstood Hitler , I always thought it was the 10 pints of Bass and chasers that were giving him rose coloured spectacles but it turns out he was actually just a man of vision after all .

Re: Praise for the Left.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:59:18 GMT

Re: Praise for the Left.

Gerry Henry — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:55:59 GMT

Read Jesse Owen's autobiography, he shook hands with Hitler, was photographed doing so, treasured the photo all his life, said he'd been treated better in Germany than in America and was snubbed by both the Roosevelt's.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

LOL

Re: Praise for the Left.

Richard Carter — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:34:37 GMT

Stephen Fry explained the whole Jesse Owens thing on Qi where the explanation given was that when the organisers realised Hitler couldn't realistically congratulate everyone, they made the decision to not congratulate anyone (in public) but as Mr Fry then went on to explain, Jesse Owens received far worse treatment on the return to USA - so it must be true

Re: Praise for the Left.

Gerry Henry — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:19:55 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Hitler was a strict vegetarian[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_Lucas

This lady seemed to disagree.

[/quote]

No evidence to back it up, quite possibly just a publicity stunt to promote her book. Goebels, Hess's wife and Traudle Junge, all very close to him, stated that from 1931 up to his death Hitler was a vegetarian.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 18:18:38 GMT

Sorry for turbo posting. I've just googled the worst dictators of all time.

They are

1) Moa Zedong - responsible for deliberately killing an estimated 49 to 78 million people

2) Stalin- responsible for deliberately killing 23 million people

3) Hitler - responsible for deliberately killing 17 million people

3 very very evil men - 2 Communists and a Socialist.

Wynne

Re: Praise for the Left.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 16:00:47 GMT

Hitler was an evil racist - and also a socialist who got into power on a high taxation manifesto. The only reason he became associated with the right was that during the 1930s nobody realised just how bad his racism was (the concentration camps were in the future) Many Conservatives saw him as the lesser of 2 evils, since the Communists also had a following in Germany at that time - and everyone knew how evil they were. Lenin murdered thousands including the family of the 1st woman president of RCVS

As for his animal welfare legislation - my reaction is exactly the same as my reaction to left-wingers in Spain currently opposing bull-fighting - give credit where it's due. That is probably the only saving grace in an otherwise thoroughly evil man,

Wynne

Re: Praise for the Left.

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:55:06 GMT

I have caught a few veggies chomping on a bacon butty or a pepperami when I made them work through lunch and they thought no one was looking.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:24:04 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Hitler was a strict vegetarian[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_Lucas

This lady seemed to disagree.

Re: Praise for the Left.

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:17:13 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Hitler was not right wing, he was a socialist, put the race thing to one side (racism is not the preserve of the right) and look at his social policies, decidedly left.[/quote]

Well he was a bit , lets face it he did not shake hands in front of the 70000 spectators which was pretty significant really.

Re: Praise for the Left.

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:10:39 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]bravery and skill of the man with the cape.[/quote] Yes i have seen it many years ago , not my cup of tea, a bit sad ,looking around it reminded me of being a small boy in the late 60s and early 70s ,watching my gran baying and shouting at her black and white tv while the wrestlers went through their routine .

Re: Praise for the Left.

Gerry Henry — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:58:01 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]Adolph Hitler was a staunch supporter of Animal Rights and consequently a vegetarian. He also banned vivisection.[/quote]

He also believed in line breeding ,in breeding and refused to shake hands with Jesse Owens at the medal ceremony in 1936 shame he died so young I think he had a great future in the kennel club.

[/quote]

Not so. Hitler shook hands with Jesse Owen in a private ceremony after the event; Owen carried that photograph with him for the duration of his life; he maintained he was better treated in Nazi Germany than he was at home, he also pointed out that Roosevelt never met him, honoured him, dined with him or shook his hand, ever.

Hitler was not right wing, he was a socialist, put the race thing to one side (racism is not the preserve of the right) and look at his social policies, decidedly left.

Hitler was a strict vegetarian, one of the first things he did was to ban the boiling of live lobsters in Berlin's restaurants; much of the animal welfare legislation current in Germany today dates from the early days of the third Reich.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 10:56:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]If it was an absolutely fair fight - both bull and matador with the weapons God gave them and no more [/quote]You forget Wynne that you probably would not be in a position to write this and hold such views if man had not developed the capacity make tools and weapons to hunt protein rich food much larger and powerful than himself, then became civilised in a settled agricultural and ultimately the present industrial society. You'd still be living in the trees.

Bullfighting is a ritualistic re-enactment of the hunt, a form of which every society performs from stone age to the most technologically advanced. That it has become unnecessary to society in its purest form is probably an irrelevant argument. But as said in another thread the veneer of civilisation is very thin. You just may think you have more layers than others but you can only make these choices because we live in a developed, prosperous society.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 10:30:41 GMT

Cretan population used to do something like that in ancient times according to findings, the tauromachian athletes had to grab the bull by the horns jump on his back and tame him. I suppose often wouldn't end to well for the men.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 10:25:51 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]Adolph Hitler was a staunch supporter of Animal Rights and consequently a vegetarian.[/quote]

Apocryph, propaganda use to make him appear as a pure but the memories of people that cooked for him report that he used to eat austriac meatballs.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Nhombokisheni — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 09:45:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If it was an absolutely fair fight - both bull and matador with the weapons God gave them and no more (ie matador stark naked and with his bare hands only) - and it was truly one to one without the bull being previously tired out by the men on horses, then I could condone it.

Wynne

[/quote]

I have been around a few decades and I have never seen "an absolutely fair fight"

I personally believe there is something inside all of us that screams out "identity", that primitive drive to belong, and to leave your own mark where it matters most. Some things define a people.....yes it may be horrible for the observer/spectator but its what the people involved live for, its an achievement they dream of from birth. Its a culture. AND that I believe is why the left/right or middle politician will always loose the battle to ban this.

As Martins says, you can't help but marvel at the skills......this is more than just a sport...its an art. I have watched the Jewish method of slaughter....no stunning....yet its the skill on show that grabs your attention.

I do not condone animal suffering.....but I also realistically and begrudgingly accept that there things that may never change the way I would want them to......especially when I go through my own list of thrills, hobbies, beliefs.

Re: Praise for the Left.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 09:22:11 GMT

Wynne