Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 12:27:58 GMT

Yes I would expect it to be signed by a vet. How closely I studied the signature and made further enquiries is a different matter!

Nothing really needs to be complicated.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Matt Hilary — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 11:52:34 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

In the time it takes to speak to a fellow vet, a receptionist could have phoned the other practice and paper confirmation ie prescription can be winging its way by email.

[/quote]

Depending on your definition of a prescription wouldn't it need to be signed by a vet anyway?

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:27:49 GMT

Now we can supply on another veterinary surgeon's prescription, it's a bit closer to being an ideal world. There's a nice easy way to comply with the law.

Wynne

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:23:10 GMT

In a perfect world i would tend to agree but this is not a perfect world!

In the time it takes to speak to a fellow vet, a receptionist could have phoned the other practice and paper confirmation ie prescription can be winging its way by email.

I don't care particularly what the format is. Even a note saying it is OK to supply X, Y or Z will do!

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:02:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]But the pet has not come under his or her control.[/quote]As said, if they walk in off the street and simple ask for more medication then yes you need a prescription. However, you have now phoned the owner's vet and he/she has confirmed that Fido is on ****** POMv and having made a reasonable assessment given the information to hand and even given a cursory look at Fido have concurred that he needs to carry on with ******. You then dispense it as you are this point in locum tenens. Simple. On the other hand it is probably just as simple to get the normal vet to fax over a script, but hey...that would not be such a good argument!

Whatever it is yet another invoking of the truism that rules are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 09:50:16 GMT

But the pet has not come under his or her control. It is an owner asking for medication that has been prescribed by another vet at another practice.

Interesting that the VMD consider a verbal prescription exists. I would normally call it an instruction from the vet to another member of staff! Me nitpicking perhaps.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 09:35:58 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]A prescription product can only be supplied by an RQP working from a different business or premises from where the product was initially prescribed against a written prescription. However, a written prescription isn’t necessary when the prescriber and supplier are different people working on the same site, if they interact in the transaction.'[/quote]However logic suggests that this doesn't preclude a vet from dispensing medication when the pet has temporarily come under his care with the knowledge of the normal vet as he/she is not dispensing on a written or oral prescription but independently with the knowledge of the medical history of the animal. He/she could equally refuse to dispense if he/she thinks the medication is incorrect. Its not quite the same as a total stranger walking in off the street and saying. 'give us some ......... (enter whatever POMv you want here) for me dog guv'. Or is that too much common sense for the VMD?

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

bob lehner — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:19:53 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]There is no such thing as a verbal prescription![/quote]

Of course there is. What do you think you create when you ask a nurse to administer an injection?

I'm quite happy to dispense on oral say so from usual vet.

[/quote]

What the vmd says on this subject:

'Prescribing is the process of an RQP deciding, instructing and recording the treatment required for an animal. Prescriptions may be oral or in writing. Vets, pharmacists and SQPs can prescribe in accordance with the distribution categories for veterinary medicines.

A prescription product can only be supplied by an RQP working from a different business or premises from where the product was initially prescribed against a written prescription. However, a written prescription isn’t necessary when the prescriber and supplier are different people working on the same site, if they interact in the transaction.'

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 01:17:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]There is no such thing as a verbal prescription![/quote]

Of course there is. What do you think you create when you ask a nurse to administer an injection?

I'm quite happy to dispense on oral say so from usual vet. I'll either give minimum amount or usual depending on what the vet wants me to do.

[quote user="Wren"]Having previously worked in a major British holiday destination [/quote]

I think that is a little rich, as I am from the same delightful seaside town.....

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 13:00:03 GMT

We just ask for a written prescription to be faxed/emailed across. Not too worried about its format but just as easy as getting a history.

I don't lose sleep over it!

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Braden Collins — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 12:09:11 GMT

I agree not being able to fill scripts from other vets is not great. We live in a holiday area so find it quite common that people need some more meds/forget their pets meds.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 12:06:22 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The weakness is that without seeing the patient it is not legal to prescribe medication without a written veterinary prescription. There is no such thing as a verbal prescription![/quote]No, my take is that the animal has temporarily come into your care so you are able to prescribe medication based on the history/advise recommended by the normal vet as you would in a case of succession. If you were in doubt as to its current condition then clearly you should give it a clinical examination anyway.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 12:04:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The weakness is that without seeing the patient it is not legal to prescribe medication without a written veterinary prescription. There is no such thing as a verbal prescription!

Is anyone likely to do anything about it (VMD or RCVS)? Probably not!

[/quote]

Jeez. What's wrong (other than legalistic nitpicking) with asking the owner a few questions and phoning their vet to get the OK? Or, at weekends when you can't get their vet, using your common sense and supplying a modest number of non-abusable tablets. Keep a suitable record (piece of paper works well) of course.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:58:50 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I've found one huge advantage from being able to supply drugs on prescription from other veterinary surgeons. I have clients who own a caravan/camping site. They accept dogs on the site, and you can guarantee that every year someone who's dog is on long-term medication forgets to pack the dog's tablets. I am now able to phone the original veterinary practice, have a scrip e-mailed, and supply the tablets, without dragging the dog in for me to see it.

[/quote]

Having previously worked in a major British holiday destinatiion we had this scenario several times a week in the summer and made do with verbal permission from the client's own vet. We set up a file with the holiday-maker's real address (not where they were staying!) and added their normal vet details and something to say that we'd spoken to them and had it OK'd in the notes. If we had any concerns we'd get the history sent over and get something in writing, but only once in a blue moon.

[/quote]

The weakness is that without seeing the patient it is not legal to prescribe medication without a written veterinary prescription. There is no such thing as a verbal prescription!

Is anyone likely to do anything about it (VMD or RCVS)? Probably not!

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Wren — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:10:04 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

[/quote]

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:40:24 GMT

Bob Ypu're a honorary Welshman.

Wynne

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:39:29 GMT

Maybe I'm a bit over-cautious, but I've always been exceptionally law-abiding, so tend to err on the side of caution.

Wynne

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 10:05:46 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I am now able to phone the original veterinary practice, have a scrip e-mailed, and supply the tablets, without dragging the dog in for me to see it.[/quote]I suspect that this is something that Braden could still do anyway, its different than someone wanting a prescription just to tout for a lower fee. Do you really need a written script to provide medication under these circumstances, surely just making up a temporary file for the patient would do with suitable notes to say the pet's normal vet has advised you it is OK.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

bob lehner — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:55:17 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We left my Uncles farm in Shropshire in blazing sunshine to holiday in Wales. It started to rain on the border, continued for two weeks then stopped when we left! Is it always like that[/quote]

View of my backyard at 8.30 am today....

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:34:22 GMT

Wynne

Martin, I'm feeling benevolent and non-confrontational this morning - maybe something to do with sunny weather!

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:22:41 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]We also can't fill scripts from other vets, and you can't buy prescription medication online.[/quote]Clearly the Australian Government isn't as liberal as ours. Whilst such a policy would be to our advantage, even I, who thought things starting going downhill the day we were allowed to advertise, can see this is protectionism and a restriction of freedom of choice, which in a modern society is unacceptable. Would it be wrong to suggest that this policy is further reflected in the Australian attitude to accepting refugees?!

Would

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Braden Collins — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:39:09 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Really? You can refuse? We're not allowed to refuse or make it prohibitively expensive or difficult. Fair competition and all that....

[/quote] Yep, we can refuse. Under our vet surgeons act we can be liable for any misuse as well. We phoned our vet surgeon board after the second case and they advised us to minimise use of prescriptions. We also can't fill scripts from other vets, and you can't buy prescription medication online.

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Bob Russell — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:23:50 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I got a red star! A real, genuine 100% red star. Does that make me a member of the club?[/quote]No someone has obviously agreed with you since. You only become a member of the red start club if it sticks. I think only Anthony and Wynne have managed that and I've tried hard enough.

[/quote]

Bo**ocks!

I am not sure that a self red-star counts but I have given myself one anyway!

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:09:56 GMT

I think the Presidency is between Anthony and myself. We'll allow you to be secretary - that way you'll do all the hard work - one of us will get the glory.

Wynne

Re: Prescription fraud - what would you do?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:35:48 GMT

I've one in the other post... Please send me the Redstar newsletter