Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

J G Wray — Sun, 07 Jun 2015 16:00:29 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]During my 30 years of employing nurses 95% have been good decent people who worked hard ,but 5% stole money etc [/quote]

Where was your management for this to be so high (5%)?

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]I also think the temptation for nurse JVPs to overstep the mark and start behaving as veterinary surgeons when the actual vet is not around or in store, is,for some of them irresistible. [/quote]

Have you any evidence for this?

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Vet2Vet — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 21:11:00 GMT

Sympathy that you have to deal with this - I too would seek advice as the quantities seem very large and unlikely to be for one horse .

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 19:34:44 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

During my 30 years of employing nurses 95% have been good decent people who worked hard ,but 5% stole money ,drugs , food , ran their own discount schemes , threw sickies , and lied about medicine administration to critical patients instead of just admitting they had forgotten. I remember one who was ordering boxes of Prevac-T s and supplying a local livery yard complete with forged documentation. It only takes one of those 5% to get in charge of a practice or in a position of responsibility. I also think the temptation for nurse JVPs to overstep the mark and start behaving as veterinary surgeons when the actual vet is not around or in store, is,for some of them irresistible.

[/quote] you could say exactly the same about 5% of vets, too. This is completely unnecessary character assassination.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

grumpyoldman — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:56:37 GMT

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

grumpyoldman — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:41:32 GMT

HWR is right , look for another job , preferably one in a practice not owned by nurses , A completely ridiculous situation IMHO. They are never really going to generate any actual goodwill squeezing anal sacs, clipping nails and glad handing old bags for the square root of FA while you do al the consulting and surgery ? what a joke ?

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

J G Wray — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 15:34:39 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The owners of this practice sound like unethical characters - end of.[/quote]

Have we heard both sides of this story?

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 14:35:31 GMT

Just seen the wormer bit. Anyone buying this number of wormers in one go must either have a lot of horses or are passing them to others. Clearly this is not legal unless the RVN also is a SQP. This does not apply to the paracetamol or danilon but these presumably are for owned animals.

At some stage a horse owner will become disgruntled and report the nurse to someone. Every yard has one of these types!

VDS and RCVS would be my suggestion.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Kate Richardson — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 14:08:37 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] One of them owns a few horses and orders Danilon and Paracetamol by the 1000s for her horse. I have never seen her horse nor spoken to her vet about dispensing the medication and the Paracetamol goes out the door without being put on a record or being put on a record for a hamster - our supplier says it becomes a POM due to the quantities supplied. They have asked the nurse to order 45 tubes of Equest Pravox.[/quote]

I own one horse and I order Danilon for him on occasion and have a box at the yard to use, and I order wormers as well when needed. 1 box of Danilon has 60 sachets- that usually lasts me well over a year as I use it in frequently. 3-4 wormers a year as well. these numbers suggest something dodgy is going on, unless she has 10+ horses of her own. I would strongly suspect she is selling them on to others, for profit or not, but this sounds extremely dodgy. I wouldn't be comfortable with it either and would def speak to VDS and RCVS in confidence, or the BVA?

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:52:07 GMT

The owners of this practice sound like unethical characters - end of. Qualifications are irrelevant in this situation.

Wynne

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:49:15 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Lay off vet nurses, eh?[/quote]My nurses could run the practice better than most vets but it doesn't sound as though that may be the situation in this case.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:35:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

As for the OP, it sounds an impossible place to work and I would vote with my feet. I suspect a practice owned by a veterinary nurse could be worse to work for than a lay person/corporate as there is a risk, as it seems in this case, that they arrogantly misguidedly might think their little bit of knowledge allows them to dictate to vets how to work and run roughshod over regulations, which clearly it does not.

[/quote]

I would disagree with that; you can meet poor, or unethical, or shady bosses anywhere, from a pawn shop to a pub to a petrol station, never mind a practice!

I've worked for non-vets and vets, and it wasn't the degree that made the difference!

Lay off vet nurses, eh?

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:27:54 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]I seem to remember a vet was struck off a number of years ago for ordering human painkillers that his wife was taking[/quote]I recall a story about a vet who gave his mate at the rugby club some ibuprofen for an injury, which he passed on to his girlfriend who was a drug addict and when she was arrested they were found in her possession. Of course plod being plod with no medical knowledge couldn't tell the difference between illegal and legal drugs and unfortunately for the vet the pot of ibuprofen has his practice label on it. Not only did this incur the wrath of the RCVS (not sure if he was struck off or not) but he had to spend an uncomfortable time 'helping the police with their inquiries'.

Moral: if you must technically break the law by using or dishing out drugs you've ordered, and of course a modicum of common sense can be applied here, don't put your label on the pot!

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 11:00:58 GMT

The owning RVN's are abusing their positions and would be very likely to face the DC if this was brought to light!

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 10:35:54 GMT

An On is better off temporarily unemployed whilst looking for a job in a more ethical practice, than permanently unemployed after being struck off by DC

Wynne

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 10:02:22 GMT

1000 Paracetamol is a POM, not P. Clearly due to the risk of misuse/overdose. Even an SQP cannot (I believe) order or dispense a human POM's. Not sure what the rules are but I assume dispensing in 16's would be 'over the counter'. More takes it into the realms of the pharmacist and doctor.

Irrespective of the clinical aspects, I fear you may be considered responsible as the only one legally allowed to prescribe human POM drugs.

If you were told it was none of your business, my advice is either issue an ultimatum or leave. VDS should be able to advise independently of the person paying the premium. If you want to stir up a can of worms you could call the VMD. I would suggest you only do this if you have a new job lined up!

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:56:21 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I voiced my concerns in September and was told it was none of my business. I emailed them last night and said I wanted to check with the RCVS to see if this was above board before the meds were ordered-I have been told they are unhappy about the disrespect I have shown towards my boss and the decisions they make for their business being questioned and have been told there is no need for me to contact the RCVS

[/quote]

It doesn't sound like a happy practice.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:53:34 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]A veterinary practice is not a pharmacy.[/quote]

I would most humbly suggest that in your setting, you're kidding yourself if you're not deriving substantial profit from your drug sales. Mind you, if you don't look at your performance in a critical manner then...

[/quote]

I think Evelyn's point was that veterinary practice's don't have a pharmacy license, so can't supply any medication for human use.

[/quote]

Thank you. My point was that what you can get on a Saturday from Boots, while interesting, is not really relevant.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:46:57 GMT

It's amazing the people who don't bother vaccinating their horses regularly

Wynne

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Wren — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:42:33 GMT

Which veterinary practice do her equine clinical work? If she 'owns a few horses' she must need a vet relatively regularly (horses are on a par with sheep for self-harming), and if nothing else then for vaccinations. The horses are technically under their care, not yours. Ask them to supply you with a prescription for the drugs. If they won't (because they likely have no idea that the horses are being given them) then they can sort it out between them and the horse owner. Until such time as a prescription is provided you shouldn't be dispensing the drugs.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:35:14 GMT

Although you are not the practice owner, the legal situation is that all prescription drugs are the responsibility of the veterinary surgeons in the practice. You're the fall guy/gal.

Wynne

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:29:26 GMT

In which case I think you need to seek further advice, I'm sure drugs ordered by a veterinary practice must be under the direct order of a veterinary surgeon, it can't be a nurse, so therefore you are being pressured into doing something you don't want to do. If your boss was a vet, it would be a different story as the responsibility would be theirs.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

An On MRCVS — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:19:47 GMT

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Richard Carter — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:09:03 GMT

I would be very upset if the first thing I knew that one of my staff members had a concern about my ordering was a visit from the VMD or RCVS - you have an issue that needs clarification - there may be a reasonable explanation - phone your boss and explain your concerns

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:07:28 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]A veterinary practice is not a pharmacy.[/quote]

[/quote]

I think Evelyn's point was that veterinary practice's don't have a pharmacy license, so can't supply any medication for human use.

Re: Ordering equine drugs when a small animal practice

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 08:46:42 GMT

Quite frankly, I'd lookfor another job. You could have enormous problems trying to convince either magistrates or Royal College that you aren't guilty.

Wynne