RCVS Membership fee

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Braden Collins — Mon, 25 May 2015 04:57:32 GMT

I think it's fair for you to pay your employer back.

If payment was due in April, were you planning to be leaving at that point? If you've handed in your notice in May I imagine the decision had been made earlier, possibly before the membership was paid?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 23 May 2015 20:53:45 GMT

Conversely if the employer deducts £240 from the last pay cheque (8/10 of £299) and the employee complains - you say that you agreed to pay the RCVS fee whilst they were working for you - hence a verbal contract. Just as hard for the employee to defend.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 May 2015 19:52:21 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"] However if the relevant terms are not written down or previously discussed then the employer will have trouble making the employee pay back subscriptions.[/quote]

Yes, that's true.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Sat, 23 May 2015 18:42:45 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Maybe the OP doesn't have a contract[/quote]

Whether it's written or not, a contract definitely exists in law since the day the employee accepted the job. However if the relevant terms are not written down or previously discussed then the employer will have trouble making the employee pay back subscriptions.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 23 May 2015 13:00:09 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The sensible thing would be for the practice to take it from the OP's last pay cheque, before tax[/quote]

If the OP agrees, which I think is what their original question related to.

[see https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay :

5. Deductions from your pay

Your employer isn’t allowed to make deductions unless:

it’s required or allowed by law, eg National Insurance, income tax or student loan repayments
you agree in writing
your contract says they can
there’s a statutory payment due to a public authority
you haven’t worked due to taking part in a strike or industrial action
there’s been an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses
it’s a result of a court order ]

[/quote]

Maybe the OP doesn't have a contract. It's not a legal requirement.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 23 May 2015 09:58:17 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The only way employer could fiddle it would be by insisting on cash and sticking it in his big back pocket. As indeed he might be doing with consultation fees if he's that sort of bloke, but that's hardly the point. (And the tax inspector will catch him sooner or later).[/quote]Some might call it 'creative accounting'. It would take a pretty eagle eyed inspector to spot it.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Sat, 23 May 2015 09:13:16 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The sensible thing would be for the practice to take it from the OP's last pay cheque, before tax[/quote]

If the OP agrees, which I think is what their original question related to.

[see https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay :

5. Deductions from your pay

Your employer isn’t allowed to make deductions unless:

it’s required or allowed by law, eg National Insurance, income tax or student loan repayments
you agree in writing
your contract says they can
there’s a statutory payment due to a public authority
you haven’t worked due to taking part in a strike or industrial action
there’s been an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses
it’s a result of a court order ]

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 23 May 2015 08:33:28 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="robloxley"]

...the employer can get a dispensation from HMRC (https://www.gov.uk/expenses-benefits-subscriptions-professional-fees/whats-exempt) not to declare them on the P11d as a benefit in kind, so no tax is payable by the employee

[/quote]Yeah but, surely the employer will put the RCVS fees he's paid on behalf of the employee through the books as an expense so it is tax deductible for the practice. So as an unincorporated small practice this would come out of my top end of profit/earnings and I would save 40% on the retention fee. If this is the case the OP should only have to pay back 60% of the pro-rata unused fee unless her employer is scrupulously honest and declares that she has paid him back the full amount.

[/quote]

The sensible thing would be for the practice to take it from the OP's last pay cheque, before tax, then everything should work out.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 May 2015 21:01:10 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]It is not a benefit in kind[/quote]

Um, it is a taxable benefit if your employer pays it for you and declares it on your p11d submission - which they should do unless they have dispensation from HMRC not to declare it - my point above.

To the OP, I'd ask again, what does your contract say, and what happened when you joined the company?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Laurence Webb — Fri, 22 May 2015 20:50:51 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] they can claim it against tax but the the employee should still have to pay tax on it as it has become a perk.[/quote]

If the employee pays it then they claim the tax back (it is added to their personal tax allowance as long as they remember to claim it). If the employer pays it then no income tax is due. It is therefore income tax neutral either way

However if the employee pays it they will have had employees NI deducted from their salary and the practice will have paid employer's NI as well. If the practice pays it is treated as an expense so no NI is due for employer or employee so it is more efficient for both.

It is not a benefit in kind.

The sums for RCVS fees are fairly small (12% for employees NI and 13.8% for employer's) but become sizeable for larger sums such as employer's pension contributions or childcare payments which could also be paid by salary sacrifice.

In answer to the OP, yes a repayment (or deduction from your final wage packet) seems reasonable on a pro-rate basis. They paid 12 months of professional fees and you are leaving after 2 months so I would expect 10/12 of the fees to be reasonable which should be deducted from your gross salary. That way there is no clever juggling of NI or tax for either party.

What does your contract say?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 22 May 2015 19:43:33 GMT

All this 40% tax stuff is irrelevant. Practice pays RCVS, that's a practice expense, goes down as such. Employee refunds some of it, that's income, goes down as such. The only way employer could fiddle it would be by insisting on cash and sticking it in his big back pocket. As indeed he might be doing with consultation fees if he's that sort of bloke, but that's hardly the point. (And the tax inspector will catch him sooner or later).

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 22 May 2015 19:27:40 GMT

If the practice pays my retention fee it is NOT taxed as a perk. Neither are BSAVA subs or CPD. COnversely my health insurance is taxable and has become a significant issue as I get older and presumably more likely to claim! If i pay my own retention fee I can claim tax relief on it but can't claim it all back If the practice pays it is much simpler for me as an employee, and the accountants work their nefarious magic which I can't.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 May 2015 19:10:33 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 May 2015 18:13:06 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]the employee should still have to pay tax on it as it has become a perk[/quote]

As RCVS subs are on list 3 (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/list3/) the employer can get a dispensation from HMRC (https://www.gov.uk/expenses-benefits-subscriptions-professional-fees/whats-exempt) not to declare them on the P11d as a benefit in kind, so no tax is payable by the employee

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 May 2015 17:04:29 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]In future negotiate a slightly better salary package and then pay your own membership.[/quote]

IIRC, it's much easier and more cost effective for the practice to pay your subs than to pay you the extra to cover you paying it

[/quote]Well quite, they can claim it against tax but the the employee should still have to pay tax on it as it has become a perk. So perhaps the OP has a point after all - maybe she is entitled pro-rata to the tax relief they got, because as sure as God made little green apples they won't declare she paid them back at the end of the tax year!

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 May 2015 16:47:35 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]In future negotiate a slightly better salary package and then pay your own membership.[/quote]

IIRC, it's much easier and more cost effective for the practice to pay your subs than to pay you the extra to cover you paying it

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 May 2015 14:48:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Sammy82"]CPD courses are a different story and I wouldn't find it very fair having to pay them back. [/quote]One of my nurses did an on-line training course which cost about £800. I paid it for her but I wrote an appendix to her contract that said she would pay it back if she didn't stay for at least 12 months. I think that is fair enough otherwise you're paying for someone else to benefit from their education. As it is she is such a nice girl and been such a loyal worker I wouldn't have invoked it anyway unless she'd gone to the practice down the road but employers have to protect themselves.

[/quote]

My practice are paying for my CertAVP, and I have a similar appendix to my contract.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 22 May 2015 14:26:35 GMT

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Eamon McAllister — Fri, 22 May 2015 13:51:38 GMT

[quote user="uhoffjohn"]

Part of my salary package is that the RCVS fee is paid for me. I am now switching jobs and it was mentioned to me that I have to pay a percentage back since I will be working somewhere else. Any thoughts?

[/quote] Only one thought. In future negotiate a slightly better salary package and then pay your own membership.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Fri, 22 May 2015 13:51:32 GMT

When in the year (with ref to RCVS subs) did you join and how was that handled?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 May 2015 09:57:35 GMT

Petty if there is only a month or two to run but not so at this time of the year as they have paid out for a year and got a month!

Pay it back and claim from your new employer!

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Sammy82 — Fri, 22 May 2015 09:38:27 GMT

Sounds fair enough. You wouldn't expect your ex boss to continue paying if it was paid monthly rather than yearly, would you? If you would change your status to non practicing now, the RCVS would even pay you back a huge chunk of the fee. One off payments for goods/services that have already been delivered, e.g. last year's membership, CPD courses are a different story and I wouldn't find it very fair havinc to pay them back.

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Rob Loxley — Thu, 21 May 2015 23:59:31 GMT

[quote user="uhoffjohn"]Any thoughts?[/quote]

Ultimately, what does your contract state?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 21 May 2015 21:44:46 GMT

There renewal fee was charged in April...so your employer who paid it hasn't had much value.

does your new employer pay the fee as well? If so it would be reasonable to ask them to pay you the difference, surely?

Re: RCVS Membership fee

Niall Taylor — Thu, 21 May 2015 21:34:22 GMT

[quote user="uhoffjohn"]Any thoughts?[/quote]

Sounds fair to me, otherwise your previous practice would be paying your RCVS membership while you're working elsewhere.

Niall