Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 16:22:17 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]In the previous centuries there was hardly any decade without any fight involving two between France, England, Germany, Austria, Spain and Portugal...[/quote]

But after 1945:

a) People had finally just had enough of big war.

b) We had a common enemy and threat: the Soviet Union.

c) There was The Bomb to consider.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 16:03:13 GMT

[quote user="Simo"]Otherwise the 70 years of peace are a bit of a stretch of imagination with the ex-Jugoslavia and the rest.[/quote]

That the reason why I have explicitly said central europe... Jugoslavia is a bit on the east side ... And there wouldn't be any war if Gazprom had no interest in some business there. It is obviously better to cook it in a racial and religious sauce to make it more tasty and easy to digest to simple minds (not the musical group). Soldiers seem to fight with more confidence if they actually believe the enemy is different from them, even if three days ago he lended them a bag of sugar.

In the previous centuries there was hardly any decade without any fight involving two between France, England, Germany, Austria, Spain and Portugal...

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Simo — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:55:06 GMT

Well, it looks like there's not much to party for in the next weeks.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:51:00 GMT

Much of central Europe spent 45 of those 70 years under a communist dictatorship.

Wynne

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Simo — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:44:33 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]

in central europe

[/quote]

Otherwise the 70 years of peace are a bit of a stretch of imagination with the ex-Jugoslavia and the rest.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:04:19 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"] a war. I hope frankly that's not going to happen in Europe, even if 70 years of peace in central europe is a long strike and it is starting to get boring [/quote]

I quite agree. But what is happening in Ukraine...........?

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:01:48 GMT

Sorry I started to write before you sent the 2nd one

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 15:00:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]one could not complain about being ruled by Brussels to any greater extent than Georgia can complain about being ruled by Washington.[/quote]

Well, southener states in USA could potentially object to be ruled by Washington and they haven't been asked to join, they have lost a war. I hope frankly that's not going to happen in Europe, even if 70 years of peace in central europe is a long strike and it is starting to get boring

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:55:47 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]to any greater extent than Georgia can complain about being ruled by Washington.[/quote]

Come to think of it, we'd have less reason to complain about it, since the Confederate States were forced back into the USA by force of arms.

But I don't understand US politics.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:45:58 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Really? (hey, as long as we're going on one-word answers!)[/quote]

Yes, really. (That's two words.)

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]Well if that's the opinion of the majority of british population you have only to go on with the referendum to get away for EU and accept the economic follow-up of your choice[/quote]

Quite so. And if we get a fair referendum and the UK population vote for the UK to stay in, I'll have to accept that.

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]If you want to be part of a federative government [/quote]

Ah. That's a good point. If the "EU" actually were a federal super-state, a United States of Europe (and Juncker is in favour of exactly that, and the original architects of the Common Market also had that as their ultimate aim); and we had voted to join it; so that we were something like the USA; one could not complain about being ruled by Brussels to any greater extent than Georgia can complain about being ruled by Washington.

In 1975 we voted to join a trading union (actually I voted against, mainly due to the Common Agricultural Policy and the fisheries policy), not a political union and definitely not one that assumed sovereignty.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Simo — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:40:04 GMT

And I find quite hilarious that you're being lectured about following the rules by Italian and Spanish people who can't follow a queue to save their life! O tempora o mores!

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Simo — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:34:48 GMT

Going back to the organic issue, yes, it is a marketing scam. More so if some people are following the rules to produce it and others are not

At the end of the day, organic farmers are under no obligation of labelling their product organic and UK is under no obligation to stay in the EU. But then, only a few months ago I read an article about asking for standardization of veterinary degrees in EU (they already are btw), it looks like you whant everything standardized by YOUR standards and never negotiate with somebody else's.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:29:50 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Really? (hey, as long as we're going on one-word answers!)[/quote]

Oh Oh We're about to be told that we don't understand british politics again

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:25:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]And so? In UK parliament you can vote only for the candidates in your area, is this so much different?[/quote]

Yes.

[/quote]

Really? (hey, as long as we're going on one-word answers!)

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:50:44 GMT

Well if that's the opinion of the majority of british population you have only to go on with the referendum to get away for EU and accept the economic follow-up of your choice. If you want to be part of a federative government you accept that a part is elected by your nation and the remaining parts by the other nations, if you don't like it, you should not take part to it. It is very simple indeed.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:44:07 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]And so? In UK parliament you can vote only for the candidates in your area, is this so much different?[/quote]

Yes.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:42:59 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

EU Parliament (for what it's worth)...... I only get to vote for the UK members.

Council of Ministers..... I only get to vote for a UK government, which only appoints the UK Minister.

The Directive is issued and the UK government is obliged to translate it into UK law (whatever the Parliament of the UK might think about it).

[/quote]

And so? In UK parliament you can vote only for the candidates in your area, is this so much different?

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:37:08 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

How the people who are actually in power and actually make the laws (Directives, Richtlinie, whayever) get into power is pretty obscure but it has precious little to do with election.

[/quote]

The Commission, who's appointed by the government of each country (that you elect) prepare and submit a law, then this law is passed to the EU Parliament (whose members you elect) and the Council (who's members are ministers of each country that you also elect) for approval or rejection of this law.

I'm not neither politician or lawyer, but It's not that obscure

[/quote]

Commission appointed by each country...... I only get to vote for the UK government.

EU Parliament (for what it's worth)...... I only get to vote for the UK members.

Council of Ministers..... I only get to vote for a UK government, which only appoints the UK Minister.

The Directive is issued and the UK government is obliged to translate it into UK law (whatever the Parliament of the UK might think about it).

So UK laws are made by the whole collection of EU countries.

Which might be OK if the people of the UK had ever been given a vote on whether they wished to surrender sovereignty (and pay 33 million pounds a day, net, for the privilege) or not.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Luca Poddighe — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:00:14 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"](whose members you elect)[/quote]

Some of them decide to not attend making your vote, furthermore, useless but still accepting the money because refusal often offends or so they say. “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 11:34:17 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

How the people who are actually in power and actually make the laws (Directives, Richtlinie, whayever) get into power is pretty obscure but it has precious little to do with election.

[/quote]

I'm not neither politician or lawyer, but It's not that obscure

[quote]

(As for this Hopkins person, who I gather has been in some television programme,

Are you serious?)

[/quote]

Unfortunately yes, I'm serious. I do think she has power because she is given a national voice. And many people will be following her deviant and dangerous views. Kids will be reading from her and look up to adults who praise her. I do worry about this.

For example: http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/katie-hopkins-video-watch-holly-2028125

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Simon Baker — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 10:05:06 GMT

Agree with all of that. My reaction to Lynne Hill's assertion of our total clinical freedom looked to me like an exo didn't way to brush off out criticism. It doesn't pass even the most cursory of examination.

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 09:52:14 GMT

All we get a chance to vote for is the pretty useless "European Parliament".

How the people who are actually in power and actually make the laws (Directives, Richtlinie, whayever) get into power is pretty obscure but it has precious little to do with election.

One thing is certain: we never got a chance to vote on whether we wanted to be in this thing or not.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote]

.And a member state is obliged to turn the Directive into national law, whatever the Parliament or citizens of that country might want.

[/quote]

That's not exactly right either. A member state is obliged to meet the ends of the Directive.

[/quote]

You know perfectly well that it comes to the same thing.

(As for this Hopkins person, who I gather has been in some television programme,

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]A person with a lot of influence and very worrying ideas. Quite relevant really.[/quote]

Are you serious?)

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 09:04:43 GMT

When people assume herbal means harmless, I tend to say heroin(poppy seeds) cocaine (coco leaves) digitalis (foxglove leaves) Penicillin (mould) could be described as a naturopathic medicine

Wynne

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Niall Taylor — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:36:21 GMT

[quote user="Simon Baker"] "It also reiterates that they are to be used only “provided that their therapeutic effect is effective for the species of animal, and the condition for which the treatment is intended.”"[/quote]

It does suggest if an enlightened organic farmer realises the ruth, that homeopathy is ineffective and tantamount to neglect, s/he could go straight in with science-based medicines when needed without doing the homeopathic step as their 'therapeutic effect' is never 'effective'. That's a small glimmer of hope!

There is no evidence eating organic is any healthier or safer than eating non-organic and some evidence when plants don't have artificial pesticides used on them they increase levels of their own, internal pesticides in response to insect attack. Natural pesticide levels in plants are far higher than so called residues on the outside.

The guidelines for organic farming are unscientific dogma - it's just a great marketing scam, and animals are the ones who are worse off as a result. But 'organic' has done so brilliantly with its rhetoric and political spin it's now almost unassailable as an industry. I wouldn't mind bettiing almost everyone asked would say organic farming was safer, kinder, healthier etc.

[quote user="Simon Baker"]It would be interesting to draw those clauses to the attention of the RCVS given that Lynne Hill's touchstone in 2006 when I tackled them in this was client choice and vets' clinical discretion "it would not be right for RCVS to seek to limit the clinical discretion of veterinary surgeons"[/quote]

The 'clinical discretion' of vets is limited all the time, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to expect homeopathic vets to get clients to sign forms to ensure fully informed consent from clients before embarking on homeopathic treatment in the same way science-based vets do when prescribing 'off license' drugs, no matter how widely known their effectiveness is recognised.

It's surprising how many people don't know what homeopathy is and think (mistakenly) it's got an active ingredient in the same way herbals have. Hom vets should be obliged to have that discussion before subjecting an animal to treatment.

Niall

Re: Organic farms must be treated homeopathically first??!?!?!?

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:23:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Who the hell is Katie Hopkins and why should we care?

[/quote]

A person who's voice is given through the Sun. A newspaper with a firm anti-EU stance. A person with a lot of influence and very worrying ideas. Quite relevant really.

[quote]

However, it's served the purpose of opening at least three sub-threads, which is always good:

[/quote]

we agree on something ...

[quote]

1. Whether "organic farming" (dunno what inorganic farming could be....... raising rocks? No, i've made that crack before) is in some way better, and if so why.

[/quote]

I believe the idea is less waste and more self-sufficient. Obviously there are some kn**heads about just doing in on their own way to take advantage...

[quote]

2. Whether the "EU" has anything to do with it. Yes, it does. This is a Directive (what kind of government governs by Directives?) which means the UK is obliged to turn it into UK law, whether we like it or not.

[/quote]

already answered that one

[quote]

3. A philosophical debating point: should we prescribe placebos? If not, why not? Please don't hammer me with outrage for posing the question, but try to answer it if you feel inclined.

[/quote]

In the strict sense of the word, I don't think we should be prescribing placebos. We're providing a private service (at least in private practice) and I don't think is morally correct to sell water to the unsuspecting owner.

however...

there would be some instances where the welfare of the animal might be compromised if you don't prescribe something that the owner wants and might seek somewhere else... that might be a grey area I suppose.