OK - late April fools joke?

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:37:45 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]That leaflet appears to be for pet owners, to explain that imaging can be used to identify the presence of a failed chip. It is certainly not any kind of directive for veterinary surgeons to start x-raying every "Meg, Nip and Buddy" to verify the position or presence of a failed chip.[/quote]

Ok in any case I wasn't going to do it.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Alex Gough — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 13:35:39 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The draft just says: "Anyone who identifies an adverse reaction to a microchip or the failure of a microchip must report that reaction or failure to the Secretary of State."[/quote]

Does it say which Secretary of State? If not, I guess we had better send all our reports direct to the First Secretary of State, William Hague

;)

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 12:30:29 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]

Indeed it does not come from the law itself but from the explanatory leaflet, in the part of failure says that you should locate it by touching it in the skin, or by imaging.[/quote]

Hi Luca,

That leaflet appears to be for pet owners, to explain that imaging can be used to identify the presence of a failed chip. It is certainly not any kind of directive for veterinary surgeons to start x-raying every "Meg, Nip and Buddy" to verify the position or presence of a failed chip.

The draft just says: "Anyone who identifies an adverse reaction to a microchip or the failure of a microchip must report that reaction or failure to the Secretary of State."

That seems to be the extent of it.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 10:45:15 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Where did you get this? I can't see anything in the draft.[/quote]

Indeed it does not come from the law itself but from the explanatory leaflet, in the part of failure says that you should locate it by touching it in the skin, or by imaging.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/368474/PCDOCS-_596562-v2-VMD_Leaflet_017_A_-_VMD_s_Microchip_Adverse_Event_Reporting_Scheme.PDF

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 18:35:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]"Under a new law introduced on 1 April this year, veterinary surgeons and nurses could face prosecution and a fine of £500 if they fail to report cases where a dog should have a microchip but it cannot be found. [/quote]

I think that's been worded for, er, maximum journalistic impact (aka scaremongering)!

The draft regs actually say: "Anyone who identifies an adverse reaction to a microchip or the failure of a microchip must report that reaction or failure to the Secretary of State."

Just because a microchip cannot be found does not mean it has failed. There seems no mention in law that you have to make any judgement as to whether the dog 'should' have a chip or not.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems the common sense approach is that you are obliged to report a failure if a) you've come across a chip that isn't working, or b) you've been told, or know because you did it yourself that the dog was chipped, and the chip is no longer working.

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]According to the wording of the law we are supposed to verify the position of the failed chip by some reliable imaging system e.g. xrays or us scan.[/quote]

Where did you get this? I can't see anything in the draft.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Simo — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 13:11:41 GMT

In the example case xray all the dogs that came in at the same time to check if actually any of them had one non functioning m-chip? Or actually routinely xray ALL the dogs that came in, just in case?

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:39:39 GMT

[quote user="Luca Poddighe"]According to the wording of the law we are supposed to verify the position of the failed chip by some reliable imaging system e.g. xrays or us scan..[/quote]And who is going to pay for that?

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:00:35 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]I would hope that inserting a new chip would be the right thing to do, but wonder if we would we be expected to xray them to see if there was a non-functioning chip present?[/quote]

According to the wording of the law we are supposed to verify the position of the failed chip by some reliable imaging system e.g. xrays or us scan... Clearly the "chairwarmers" in the parliament have not so much to do

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:47:31 GMT

[quote user="Simo"]

What about a shelter situation where a dog comes in for rehoming with a note saying he's chipped, but the exam fails to detect one? If there are no other means of identification and the real possibility of a notes mixup, what are we supposed to do? It happened to me and I just inserted a new microchip, but then the law was not yet in force...

[/quote]

I would hope that inserting a new chip would be the right thing to do, but wonder if we would we be expected to xray them to see if there was a non-functioning chip present?

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Simo — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 10:32:34 GMT

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Hannah Jordan — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:41:03 GMT

It seems that although technically it will be an offence not to report a microchip migration or failure Defra do not intend to prosecute veterinary surgeons, preferring instead to leave things to the RCVS. The RCVS have advised vets to 'make appropriate reports' i.e report with the same mindset they use with ADR reporting.

I find it perplexingly daft. We raised this in Committee before these regulations left draft format and they wouldn't budge, but now they won't actually be enforcing the legislation. Sigh.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Joyce Whitehead — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:15:31 GMT

Our animalcare rep told me yesterday that the breeder will be able to register the pups (or the implanter/vet will) in a sort of "pending" arrangement so that when the pup is sold, the new owner can be added at no charge. Whether this rule will apply to all databases, however, I am not sure.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 08:46:13 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

The regulations seem to state that the breeder must have the pups chipped before they sell them but there is no compulsion for anyone to change the details to the new owner. How does that help responsible pet ownership? And if a dog comes in with no chip who am I going to report, the breeder or the new owner? We might not even know who the breeder is!

[/quote]

The legislation is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111125243

Section 8 says that the new keeper must get the registration details changed if the previous keeper hasn't already done so.

[/quote]

So the breeder is likely to remain 'invisible' just as now!

A 12 or even 16 week limit would make a lot of sense as it will allow good practices to put in good chips, on good databases!

[/quote]

What isn't clear to me is whether the database over-writes the keeper details when there is a change of keeper, or whether a history is kept so that they can see all the previous keepers, including the breeder.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:47:59 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

The legislation is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111125243

Section 8 says that the new keeper must get the registration details changed if the previous keeper hasn't already done so.

[/quote]

So the breeder is likely to remain 'invisible' just as now!

A 12 or even 16 week limit would make a lot of sense as it will allow good practices to put in good chips, on good databases!

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:47:51 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Section 8 says that the new keeper must get the registration details changed if the previous keeper hasn't already done so.[/quote]

How do they know that the new keeper hasn't stolen the dog? Sorry if I'm thick as a brick but I don't see and easy way out...

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:40:24 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[/quote]

The legislation is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111125243

Section 8 says that the new keeper must get the registration details changed if the previous keeper hasn't already done so.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:35:39 GMT

I just report failures to the manufacturers and they file the report but now I will do both!!

Thanks for the link!

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:22:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Jordan"]

Dear Luca,

You are supposed to report failed microchips here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/microchip-adverse-event-reporting-scheme

Best,

[/quote]

Thanks!

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:12:29 GMT

Bob That's awful.

Wynne

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Hannah Jordan — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 16:03:36 GMT

Dear Luca,

You are supposed to report failed microchips here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/microchip-adverse-event-reporting-scheme

Best,

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:17:43 GMT

None of this has been thought out!

Can you imagine the welfare implications if the people running the dreadful industrial breeding farm in NI, do all their own microchipping?

They wanted a gun to shoot dying puppies and unwanted breeding stock for crying out loud!

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:12:58 GMT

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:01:37 GMT

I know they have, but I haven't seen it, a certificate that is not at their name though... They're fine for me to report chip is not working so no obstruction from their side.

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:26:02 GMT

Just get your cheque book out and pay £500 to DEFRA associates Ltd!

Absolutely no idea. I had one earlier in the week and sent them back to the budget practice to get it replaced. Had I known this might cost me £500 perhaps I might have done things differently.

I suppose the chip manufacturer would be the first point of call. No use if the client just knows it is chipped but does not know the number!

Re: OK - late April fools joke?

Luca Poddighe — Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:03:41 GMT

Funny enough I just found one dog that was supposed to have a chip and it isn't working any longer. Whom am I supposed to notify it?