Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Simo — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 18:58:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

One of our daughters has grown up with the same sense of self importance and self confidence as we exude although she has the brains and looks to justify it. Sadly the other one seems to have inherited the insecurity without the ability to develop the mask.

[/quote]

Little wonder if you ever said this out loud in their presence.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 18:24:19 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I find that being married to a somewhat scary lady helps prevent me waking up worrying about how perfect I am or am not![/quote]The trouble in our marriage is that we are both alpha personalities so neither Mohammed nor the mountain will move. We probably both have the same basic insecurities which are masked by an alter ego but boy what egos! I reflect that by marrying each other we have at least saved two other people from a life of misery.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:34:31 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I am still right. [/quote]

You are certainly unique! Your DNA should be somehow replicated, I'll ring Dechra in the morning....

[/quote]I know, its hard to wake up every morning and wonder how I can live with such perfection and have to tolerate so many imperfect people for another day. However I would rather remain unique so give the call a miss.

[/quote]

I find that being married to a somewhat scary lady helps prevent me waking up worrying about how perfect I am or am not!

Brilliant to see her in full flight convincing the local garage that the brakes on her car were covered by warranty! By the end of it I rather expected them to fill the car with petrol FOC! Makes me realise why I married her!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 16:26:11 GMT

[quote user="Simo"] I truely believe two pair of eyes see better[/quote]

Sometimes the nurse or receptionist casually says "the owner told me the dog loves icecream and has....." and this is when you're trying to sort a chronic diarrhoea with a controlled diet!!

Remember the emperor's new clothes syndrome too......

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:28:50 GMT

[quote user="Simo"]

If they find a way to replicate his self confidence genes and use it to mutate others, I'll have a go

I don't remember it as a problem when I first entered a UK practice 8 years ago, so I wonder if it's the growing legal responsibilities of nurses that make them feel so challenged or it's just a locum thing.

[/quote]First, I wasn't born with self confidence genes so mine will be no good to you! I didn't crawl out from behind my mother's apron strings or say boo to a goose before I was 21 but 2 things happened. First I had to build a screen to protect myself or I would have cracked up, an alter-ego, even slightly schizophrenic maybe, ( a bit like Freddie Mercury's on and off stage persona) and in the end I became the on-stage persona. The real person from behind the screen keeps trying to get out but I'm pretty good at pushing him back most of the time. Or maybe the real me was just protected by that screen and couldn't wait to get out.

Secondly I genuinely did quickly come to realise that if I'd thought something through thoroughly and made a decision then that decision was right and my confidence grew when I found that 99% I was justified. But I also have also developed the ability to shrug off mistakes, pick myself up and get on with it.

As for your second bit my take is that I suspect the nurses think that at 8 years qualified you should perhaps be more self confident and it depends what they're used to. Maybe they're used to working for someone like me! Mine have known very little other than the way I work, they don't know the real person who lives behind the screen, and are often critical of how locums work. That doesn't necessarily mean the locums are wrong just different.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Simo — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 13:50:45 GMT

Regarding the "old ways are better" thing, I was just yesterday discussing how strange I find that many practices, even ones with bad financial situations make so little use of the microscope. Personally I find that in some common situations it's invaluable to reach a quick diagnosis, yet in one practice I worked for it was lodged behind the vettest covered in dust, in another (a charity centre) it was used to prevent the b-collar from falling down the wall!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Simo — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 13:37:30 GMT

If they find a way to replicate his self confidence genes and use it to mutate others, I'll have a go

Seriously, I have to agree regarding the Vet/nurse relationship, coming back after a long career break as a locum the most difficult thing I found was to find a balance between not asking for a different point of view and pass for the stubborn or asking for it and pass for the one who doesn't have a clue... most of the time I tend on the latter. I truely believe two pair of eyes see better then one (whoever the second pair belongs too) and a nurse is simply better suited to notice some things a vet has no time or chance to see, being confined in the 10 minute consult frame. But I found all too often asking "what do you think about that?" is nowadays seen as a lack of experience/knowledge or worse as an attempt to shift responsibility, where in fact it is just a try to build a bit of team play.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:39:07 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]However I would rather remain unique so give the call a miss.[/quote]

Don't you think you have a duty, I mean, for the good of mankind? [mind you the kiss at the end raises questions.....]

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:20:34 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I am still right. [/quote]

You are certainly unique! Your DNA should be somehow replicated, I'll ring Dechra in the morning....

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:37:11 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]He had run a vettest full screen and found the blood calcium was zero[/quote]

Ah - good old EDTA. If in doubt run a potassium on the same sample.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:55:44 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

He had run a vettest full screen and found the blood calcium was zero!

[/quote]

hahaha! Did you ask if the dog was alive at all? so its heart runs in diesel?

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Julie Innes — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:53:47 GMT

I agree to a certain extent about reliance on tech- I was working alongside a locum once, who came and told me he had booked a dog in for the following day for a parathyroid assay, and gone through the condition with the owners. I was fairly interested, because hyperparathyroidism is something I had not (and still haven't!) seen in practice, so I asked him about presenting signs etc. The dog had presented with vomiting and diarrhoea. He had run a vettest full screen and found the blood calcium was zero! I asked him if the dog was showing signs of hypocalcaemia and he looked at me like I had horns!! I repeated the blood calcium the next day, in the absence of any clinical signs of hypocalcaemia and it was normal. I always think blood tests are great, but they should really be used to confirm a condition you suspect from looking at the full clinical picture, rather than to cast a net for anything abnormal, whether it fits the clinical picture or not!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:39:29 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]You are certainly unique! Your DNA should be somehow replicated, I'll ring Dechra in the morning....[/quote]

I do love it when the first thread I read in the morning makes me laugh out loud.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:50:17 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I am still right. [/quote]

You are certainly unique! Your DNA should be somehow replicated, I'll ring Dechra in the morning....

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:27:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]I know you're joking[/quote]What makes you think that? I learned at a very early stage of my career (in fact the first day!) that if I have worked something through and made a decision based on all the evidence before me and everyone else disagrees I am still right.

Because we are in a job where we have to sometimes make split second decisions which can mean a matter of life or death we have to be confident of our own abilities. In hindsight there are always occasions when we may have done things differently but if you make a wrong decision based on evidence which seemed to make it right at the time you were still not wrong. The difference is we end up with a dead dog and an irate owner, a pilot puts the plane into the sea!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:17:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I'm always right.[/quote]

Yeah but [and I know you're joking] this has nothing to do with age; some of the most stubborn people I know or vets, have been young.

Try getting an architect to admit an error, let alone wrong!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:01:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] if having listened, and considered you still think you're right, then don't be bullied[/quote]I'm always right. Even the time I thought I was wrong I was right so its never an issue but my nurses still bully me.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Richard Carter — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:15:07 GMT

And the second part of the article where the experienced pilots have retired and are now being taught by people who had tried it once or twice in a simulator? Where have I heard that before??? Pretend cows are ok? Get all your training on your external rotations because we don't have any live animals in universities for training.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:11:42 GMT

I'm not advising being too arrogant to listen. My RVN often comes back from CPD with good ideas - in fact my depocillin dosage rate in the thread on rabbit's eyes comes from some of her CPD notes. Same would apply if anyone - even the cleaner said the animal wasn't breathing. Having said that, the ultimate responsibility is the veterinary surgeon's so, if having listened, and considered you still think you're right, then don't be bullied. I was bullied by nurses when a new grad. I wouldn't be now.

Wynne

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:01:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Listen to your nurses, or even kennel maids, but don't be bullied by them.[/quote]Sometimes some vets are so arrogant or set in their ways they need bullying Wynne. Loads of nurses have left the local stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap practice with the same tales of him refusing to follow proper anaesthetic protocols. Then again if someone like that is so stubborn and bent on profit over best practice he's not going to listen to the altimeter, the ground alert radar or even look out the window!

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:42:49 GMT

I agree with Francisco. Listen to your nurses, or even kennel maids, but don't be bullied by them.

Wynne

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:01:47 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]The point, IMHO, was nothing to do with age per se but rather that, in flying, sometimes it may be better to ignore what the instruments say and rely on what your senses tell you and fly the aeroplane [eg AF447][/quote]The problem with the Air France disaster was that the pilots had little other points of reference flying over water in the dark. Another even more infamous case was a flight into Santiago where there was a problem with the altimeter and the pilot continued to descend and it put it in the sea even though his ground alert radar was telling him to pull up . I know which one I'd have acknowledged until I'd reassessed the situation!

But there are loads of incidents about very experienced people just following routine like the surgeons who persistently tried to intubate a patient and failed so the patient died even though a junior nurse had gone off and fetched the tracheostomy kit and they ignored her.

We've had this discussion on here before and I was amazed how many were very dismissive of junior staff pointing out their mistakes to the point of arrogance.

With the blocked cat you need to address both issues there is no point killing the cat with a GA because its potassium is too high.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:23:02 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]I did read the original post this morning and I have to say comparisons between aviation and veterinary medicine are strained to say the least.[/quote]

The point, IMHO, was nothing to do with age per se but rather that, in flying, sometimes it may be better to ignore what the instruments say and rely on what your senses tell you and fly the aeroplane [eg AF447]

Applying that to vet practice there seems to be a tendency or even a compulsion to treat blood values and not the patient [eg blocked cats; lower the K+ rather than unblocking the cat].

Certainly AFAIK in AF447 it was nothing to do with the age of the pilot and in the Tenerife disaster there was confusion over the clearance given. There was some mention of looking out of windows, as I recall, which is rather the point the original thread on PPRuNe was suggesting.

However there will be much dissent to follow.

I'll post the link rather than extracts if there is a future need, Arlo.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:17:23 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

The rules have changed and now younger crew members are encouraged to speak up and senior crew members are obliged to listen.

[/quote]

I can't comment about flying, I have no idea.

In a veterinary practice tho, I always listen to nurses' comments and take into account other approaches to the same problem. Often they come with an alternative, or let's say, a modify version of my original decision that suits the patient better and that I haven't thought about.

However.

I had nurses (and I say I had because this mainly happened during my locum period) where their approach was there to suit them, not the patient! And if you didn't listen, they'd make your life difficult. I totally agree that you should listen to opinions, but the final order of things, and for the benefit of our patients, is VET --> NURSE and not the other way around.

This is not a dig at the nurses, but a reminder that the vet surgeon is the ultimate responsible of the patient and therefore the maximum authority there.

***

Coming back to the OP, I believe that the knowledge of older-wise vet shouldn't be ignored and very often is the way to go. But extra checks and tests are there for a reason, and it is not always increasing profit or covering your a**e.

Re: Someone agrees with me, and they fly!

Niall Taylor — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:39:08 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'm going to be a bit pedantic here and point out that it isn't strictly about the 'younger' crew members, because first officers are not infrequently older than the captain![/quote]

Point taken, but I bet age has a lot to do with which opinions are taken seriously or not, as well as rank.

Niall