Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:40:52 GMT

The profession [or the practising profession] has one critical advantage shared with doctors, dentists and probably lawyers.

[Oh sh*t I forgot ladies hair dressers, the most intimate homosexual relationship ever without the sex] they know things no husband knows!!!]

Establish this and you've clients for life, independent of cost and, even to some degree, quality.

I'd back the good [popular] single handed vet against any corporate practice any day unless, and this is the point, the corporates can give all their vets a personal identity.

I know some vets from whom no vet, even MA himself, would ever take a client, even if treatment was free!!

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:27:06 GMT

I'm in agreement with Bob mostly.. until this last paragraph.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

there is an influx of vets seeking better pay and allowing the less scrupulous employers to keep salaries low.

[/quote]

Who is allowing who?

Is it not the 'less scrupulous employers' who are allowing it to happen?

Or the pet owners who chose price over care?

I guess is just the way Bob put it, because I agree mostly with what he says in his last post and I'm myself a foreign vet.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:41:26 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

" Very cheap, very inexperienced vets, many with real language issues "

Bob is this really evidence based or is this what you think/expect of these corporations' vets?

I think one reason why they can sell vaccination s cheap is that they can buy them incredibly cheap through their deals with the Pharma industry.

Vaccination for life is of course a very good strategy to get clients in and see them annually. I would hope that it would stimulate keeping up with vaccinations, for people who might otherwise lapse.

Mariette

[/quote]

Not talking 'corporates' in general. We have a vet visiting a pet shop to do vaccinations. Subcontracted from a meat inspection company. Cats are vaccinated without leaving the cage. Not one of the clients I have seen following a visit to pet shop understood a word the vet said not apparently did the vet seem to understand or be interested in listening. Cheap vaccination, yes but no veterinary care that I can see.

I feel sorry for the vets especially if they were promised small animal experience as part of their package!

Corporate is a bad term but sums up the state of mind. Business first, veterinary and staff care second! I have done my best to avoid the term foreign vets because many are of high calibre, What is lacking is quality experience in a lot of cases.

The only way to continue down the crazy route of undercutting is by reducing the level of experience and paying the lowest rate possible IMO. None of this is good for vets welfare and does nothing to stop the apparent flow of people out from the profession.

Average income (after tax) in Poland according to wikipedia is about 8200 Euros, the UK 36,000 Euros (chosen only because my wife works with a lot of Polish!). Not surprising there is an influx of vets seeking better pay and allowing the less scrupulous employers to keep salaries low.

One partial answer to the thread title IMO.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:57:30 GMT

" Very cheap, very inexperienced vets, many with real language issues "

Bob is this really evidence based or is this what you think/expect of these corporations' vets?

I think one reason why they can sell vaccination s cheap is that they can buy them incredibly cheap through their deals with the Pharma industry.

Mariette

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 12:40:29 GMT

"I can`t believe the prices quoted here. Really shameful that they are allowed to do this. The corporate development of the veterinary field is as destructive as the corporate development of the rest of world.
The whole business idea of charging nothing for routine stuff,and then overcharging for every sick animal is deeply flawed.
Unfortunately we`re seeing more of the corporate takeovers in Norway too now. Until now most clinics here have been relatively small, and independent, which is how I would like it to remain.
Normal price here for microchipping is around 60-70£, and vaksine is about 50-60£ . If somebody tries to undercut the prices they would put themselves in a bad light with all their colleagues.
65£ vaccine for life is riddiculous. 9£ vaccine ? We pay more for than that for the vials !!
Ultiumately this will push the veterinary salary to a unmanagable level. Unfortunately most vet students don`t think about salaries,they just want to work with animals. "

Sadly I don't think things will change in the near future. Very cheap, very inexperienced vets, many with real language issues together with cheap or subsidised premises with no security to prevent a cat escaping, is very hard to deal with on cost.

The plan seems to be to hit the competition and put it out of business but thankfully this does not seem to be happening. Last month was a record March for us so there is still hope for small practices.

I suspect the 24/7 practices will take over some of my patients overnight and at the weekends but are unlikely to keep them the rest of the time. This worries me because they are likely to be entrusted to the care of very young, inexperienced vets that may not have adequate skills in a real emergency.

The profession is in freefall and much is because of the corporate vet mentality. Bums on seats and hope the general public forget the real value for money from many of the traditional practices.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Stigen — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 12:18:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Stigen"]If somebody tries to undercut the prices they would put themselves in a bad light with all their colleagues. [/quote]And would that stop them? It certainly doesn't worry them here. I had a row with owner of the local stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap practice who seems to think that bums on seats is the be all and end all. He said to me,'the trouble with some people is that they are jealous of me me because I'm successful'. My reply was, 'some of us also count the respect rather than the disdain of our peers as success'. I think this was lost on him.

[/quote]

So far there is`nt any of those "backyard surgeries" i Norway,as far as I know. The collegial ties are pretty good, as we often have regional cpd meetings where we meet the staff from the other local clinics. There s different prices at different clinics, but it is much in the same ballpark.
If you were the vet undercutting all the prices you would be very much alone, and not very popular at any social event.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

J G Wray — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 12:16:33 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"] The corporate development of the veterinary field is as destructive as the corporate development of the rest of world.
The whole business idea of charging nothing for routine stuff,and then overcharging for every sick animal is deeply flawed. [/quote]

Hmmm, do you think this is going to change?

Railing against the Corporate menace is unproductive.

We're all in selling now, like it or not and not just objects/commoditised services, but ideas and techniques. We are persuading, negotiating, and pitching for our services in general practice and charging for profit. Profit is essential to provide for practice and personnel development amongst other things. Profit, in whatever form, is crucial for whatever higher purpose drives you, as a form of measurable outcome.

Selling has a bad reputation. To quote someone else, “To the smart set, sales is an endeavour that requires little intellectual throw weight – a task for slick glad-handers who skate through life on a shoeshine and a smile” – and deception, of course. But deception was only possible because buyers lacked information or expertise, which is kind of how it was in the "Good Old Days" in veterinary practice . Now, since buyers have reviews, ratings, and comparison shopping at their fingertips, sellers have more incentives to be fair and honest. It’s “seller beware.” That's hard and not what we were educated for nor necessarily what we expected when we went into practice.

The veterinary industry in the UK is stratifying into the low cost providers, the Corporates and the Independents and currently there are still more Independents than Corporates. The Corporates are not interested in limited low cost provision long term nor are most Independents, so both will have to work out how to achieve what they want from selling things other than the commoditised products and services.

Embrace this and what is required for your practice and you've got a way forward. Your business is, after all the only business you can mind. The alternative is unhappiness and loss of control.

The OP has plenty of contacts to help with this, loves this industry and amazingly has never grown cynical. Why not talk to him?

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:59:33 GMT

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Stigen — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 11:31:44 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Free market Thatcher style economics.

Too many vets, saturate the market.

Too many practices with only a finite amount of work, all doing the same thing and competing against each other and driving down costs, and terms and conditions for staff. (In my last house, 7 practices were within less than an hours walk)

Corporatisation with its inevitable driving down of costs and T&C's, undercutting traditional practices and either driving them the same way or putting them out of business (Tesco-isation)

We now have £5 microchips and the £9 annual booster vaccine; http://www.yourvets.co.uk/special-offers

About 2 years ago I saw a website from one of the low cost outfits offering "all in cat dentals" £45

£65 vaccines for life: http://www.easipetcare.com/vaccination-clinics/gloucester (they even mention a competitor charges £99)

We're all dooooomed

[/quote]

I can`t believe the prices quoted here. Really shameful that they are allowed to do this. The corporate development of the veterinary field is as destructive as the corporate development of the rest of world.
The whole business idea of charging nothing for routine stuff,and then overcharging for every sick animal is deeply flawed.
Unfortunately we`re seeing more of the corporate takeovers in Norway too now. Until now most clinics here have been relatively small, and independent, which is how I would like it to remain.
Normal price here for microchipping is around 60-70£, and vaksine is about 50-60£ . If somebody tries to undercut the prices they would put themselves in a bad light with all their colleagues.
65£ vaccine for life is riddiculous. 9£ vaccine ? We pay more for than that for the vials !!
Ultiumately this will push the veterinary salary to a unmanagable level. Unfortunately most vet students don`t think about salaries,they just want to work with animals.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:58:19 GMT

I must say that if I persisted with the view that the earth was, actually, flat, 'cos you can see the edge when you look out the window then a red-star may be the only way .

If, as is usually the case, it is a well supported and argued view, then a red-star is non-productive and just a cowardly anonymous admission of defeat.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:52:42 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Why not just admit they have a point, which you don't agree with and give a reason, apart from prejudice, or just being wrong, which, for some, is so difficult?[/quote]I'm hardly innocent of banging on about the same thing on occasion but I do reach a point at which I realise that there is little point in continuing, some others seem to find this a difficult concept to grasp.

MA Never knowingly wrong.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:46:57 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]That said some of AT's, JM's, JGW's, AW's and even HWR's posts get so tedious that I give up the will to live let alone answer and the red star gets it.[/quote]

Why not just admit they have a point, which you don't agree with and give a reason, apart from prejudice, or just being wrong, which, for some, is so difficult?

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I was going to say that red star man is a coward who hasn't got the courage or intellectual capacity make a constructive criticism[/quote]

That's all you should have said, which is my view in a nutshell, unless it's a personal attack.

Crikey it sounds as if it is.......

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 10:38:29 GMT

Thanks for that, Martin. It seems to have gone anyway. And hurrah - I have a full compliment of yellow stars for my last comment Lol

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:58:59 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]I sound like Antony Todd, but I'm surprised that I got a red star for my post about the hunt's illegal activities An, yes, we don't need to agree but we can disagree politely.

[/quote]I was going to say that red star man is a coward who hasn't got the courage or intellectual capacity make a constructive criticism but I have accidentally red-starred a post before when I've had a nervous twitch of my mouse hand while hovering over the star bar! That said some of AT's, JM's, JGW's, AW's and even HWR's posts get so tedious that I give up the will to live let alone answer and the red star gets it.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 08:57:07 GMT

Oh - it wasn't a personally directed comment. It was more of a musing -)) Maybe it's a red star becuAse I shouldn't be finding it funny that the huntsman thought that this wS a valid defence. I should find it insulting to my intelligence that he thought that it was ok to do something he knew to be illegal because he'd previously spent a lot of time NOT doing something illegal -)))

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 21:07:53 GMT

Not guilty of red starring , honest

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 20:27:37 GMT

I sound like Antony Todd, but I'm surprised that I got a red star for my post about the hunt's illegal activities An, yes, we don't need to agree but we can disagree politely.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 07:22:41 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]I can't agree with David any more tbh. It's quite frustrating to hear people on here saying how things they want done should be done by somebody else. If you want an advert tellng people about the costs of keeping a pet, have a chat with some like index people and get on and make one. And as far as the vexatious prosecution of heythorp hunt- even the independent inquiry said it was justified. If the police a tuay did something about it then the RSPCA wouldn't need to. It's illegal to hunt foxes with hounds. The hunt people admitted it and were prosecuted - fair enough imo

[/quote] I didn't say prosecuting hunting wasn't justified , I said I thought animal welfare would be better served by educating the public . The police have to prioritise their resources too and I assume they have prioritised counter terrorism and child sex abuse. I would love to think I had the resources and influence to organise an advertising campaign but I haven't. It would be very boring on this list if we all agreed with each other.

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 07:09:34 GMT

Caught not fight! On my phone too -))

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 07:08:56 GMT

One thing that made me laugh about the hunt prosecutions was one of the defendants saying that when the RSPCA looked at 500 hrs of footage, they only found 15 mins of the hunt knowingly chasing a fox. I think I shall try and use this defence - I've been driving for 33yrs and I was only fight speeding for 2 mins so I have to be let off

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:54:24 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]You are likely using an Ipad or a device made by the evil Apple corporation.......[/quote]

Just because you can't get Plusnet on your new IPad

However

Finally looks like they are making an effort. After Bill Gates and his Malaria crusade, it looks like Apples chief exec is going to donate a spot of his wealth as well

http://www.engadget.com/2015/03/27/tim-cook-charity/

We'll wait and see

Neil

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

ruths — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 23:34:27 GMT

I can't agree with David any more tbh. It's quite frustrating to hear people on here saying how things they want done should be done by somebody else. If you want an advert tellng people about the costs of keeping a pet, have a chat with some like index people and get on and make one. And as far as the vexatious prosecution of heythorp hunt- even the independent inquiry said it was justified. If the police a tuay did something about it then the RSPCA wouldn't need to. It's illegal to hunt foxes with hounds. The hunt people admitted it and were prosecuted - fair enough imo

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:43:12 GMT

You are right ! I am !

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 22:39:19 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]And why have I no paragraphs ?

[/quote]

You are likely using an Ipad or a device made by the evil Apple corporation.......

Re: Why are vets, nurses and other practice staff not paid enough?

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 06 Apr 2015 19:08:10 GMT

And why have I no paragraphs ?