to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Gina Dungworth — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:16:53 GMT

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything Clare and Angela had to say there. Industry does take a particular type of personality (although there's some variation between the various career paths and industry aspects as to what's most important). On the other hand, you definitely shouldn't restrict yourself to veterinary-linked roles if you move away from practice -- my current job encompasses human medicines as well as cosmetics, disinfectants and foods (mostly cough sweets!) not to mention that some of our byproducts go into the animal feed industry.

I do bits of veterinary writing on the side as well as being membership secretary for the Association of Veterinarians in Industry, so I still know what's going on in the veterinary world, but I don't miss the full-time involvement all that much.

PM me if you want to discuss anything further.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:26:56 GMT

Reading your post I note that you say that on graduation that you loved your first job , so maybe it's a new job in a supportive practice you need and looking at the vet record there are plenty of jobs out there for someone with the experience you have. Be completely honest with a prospective employer and they may help you build up your confidence again. Assess which areas of work you do enjoy and see if it's possible to pursue those areas. We spend so much of our lives working so don't settle for something you don't enjoy, your future career doesn't even have to be veterinary related. Locum work can be just as stressful and every dog lead or cat basket has a human attached wherever you work, and in industry you will still have to deal with difficult people too. I am told that vets can be real pains as customers too ;)) It may be that you are going through a dip in confidence which happens to many vets every few years or so due to one reason or another, a bit like a three year itch. Try writing your thoughts down and discussing it with someone you trust who isn't involved in the practice but who knows you and can help you plan for the future. It's a positive step to have raised it here on this forum and I hope you find a solution.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Angela Rodger — Fri, 27 Mar 2015 14:58:20 GMT

I agree with a lot of the responses so far. Locuming may not be a good move for you if your confidence is not great, as in most places you're expected to have a decent level of surgical skill and just get on with it. It sounds like you need a practice where you'll be supported and encouraged and am sure you'd be happier in an environment like that. What kind of industry work are you interested in? I worked in practice for 8 years, then went into the regulatory sector and am now in a commercial role, still as a vet, for an online retailer. I enjoyed the regulatory work and I'm enjoying the job I'm in now, despite both being vastly different. I still do Saturdays in practice which I really like - it's enough to remind me why I don't do it full time anymore, but it's good to keep my skills and knowledge up. Am happy to give you any advice on industry - a good foot in the door are technical advisor roles in pharmaceutical companies. They tend to come up reasonably often and you usually just need clinical experience as a requirement. Good luck!

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

tess — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:58:42 GMT

Having the right boss is make or break when it comes to helping you with confidence.

There are those who criticise, put you down, make you feel small and won't support you. There are also those who care very much about the welfare and mental wellbeing of their staff as they know it helps to build a good teamwork ethic.

Changing jobs can be a life-changing move. Look for a practice where the turnover of staff is low, look at why they are advertising for a vet, and get a feel of the atmosphere. Look for somewhere where cases are regularly discussed as a team, look at attitude towards CPD, do people come back ready to share what they've learned etc.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Linda Filshie — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 19:33:07 GMT

[quote user="Stigen"]

brilliant charity in the caribbean - I spent some time at this place - a clinic right on the beach, brilliant people running it, lots of Rum available ! highly reccomended.

[/quote]

I worked for a few days on Carricou when the Grenada SPCA ran a spay/neuter clinic there (i was mainly based on Grenada). It's a beautiful island and the diving is incredible. The people running affairs did so professionally and well, unlike some horror stories I've heard from vets doing charity work elsewhere. Plus totally amazing rum punch! Oh crikey, now I've started thinking about sabbaticals...

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Sorrel Proctor — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:05:11 GMT

I locumed in small animal practice as a relatively new graduate, after 18 months in mixed practice, and I mostly loved it. Maybe I was just lucky but I generally found the days much easier than in 'normal' practice as I never had much paperwork etc to deal with and often consults weren't too busy as people prefer to see the regular vet. Even surgery-wise I found no one ever booked in complicated things for the first couple of days and I'd always be asked if I was OK with anything they planned to book in (even something like an enucleation). It was a nice break from on call too as I just chose not to do placements that required it. The stresses of finding a place and fitting in and using the computer system etc are there but they were outweighed by the freedom of knowing you were leaving in a day or a week or a month... As a result I got a much better idea of what I was looking for in a practice and it helped me when I went back to applying for 'real' jobs again! I would suggest giving it a go - it's a bit of money to tide you over while you look at the industry job options (and more money for less work) and if you don't like it, you can stop easily. Good luck.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Stigen — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:06:28 GMT

I felt like that after my first few years of working in small animal clinics in the UK. What I found did miracles for my motivation(and skills) was to go to some tropical paradise and help out with charities. It can be stressful to start with, but once you get into the pace of things it can be really rewarding. First time I did a charity misson was in Dominican republic, and for the first time in my career I felt a genuine satisfaction and pride with the job I was doing. And everybody helping out at the charity was so nice and respectful to us vets, felt like a king!

If I were you I would quit my job, and find some nice tropical destination with a good beach,and a charity that will allow you a good variety between chill-out time and working time. Spend a few months in a setting like that,and you might feel like a different person afterwards!
http://www.worldwidevets.com/#!veterinaryplacements/c1jh6 - WWV -brilliant oirganisationb

brilliant charity in the caribbean - I spent some time at this place - a clinic right on the beach, brilliant people running it, lots of Rum available ! highly reccomended.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Bibs — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:10:15 GMT

Maybe another option is if you have someone at home who would support you for a short while you could look into volunteering at a charity clinic. I worked with a recent grad recently who was at a PDSA as a kind of extra vet volunteering while she looked for a job. She didn't have the same pressure as she wasn't expected to get through x-million consults or ops per hour and to be frank she seemed to be more confident than most after the experience because she was allowed to do loads and had the back up of other vets because they were pleased to have her helping and picking up some of the load. I was certainly glad of her scrubbing in with the biggest pyo I'd ever seen. Maybe if you get your confidence up you could look at locuming later. I started locuming because I felt burnt out and it definitely helped me. I could do my best and felt appreciated but in my experience you tend not to see the high maintenance clients because they usually want to see the boss or the regular vets and are suspicious of locums. I also found the knowledge that no job was for long helped me cope much better with difficult or draining days. I remember walking around a few practices feeling happy and enjoying it. When I imagined being there long term I suddenly started to feel negative and drained. Also I've had 2-3 weeks off each Christmas over the last 2 years, bliss. This may all change soon as I'm being lured into considering a permanent job again but I've loved locuming although I've managed to find most of my work within commuting distance to home.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:08:20 GMT

You'd get masses of experience in a charity clinic, but if your self-confidence has taken a battering, then the pace might be daunting. I found my feet by spending 3 years in a traditional practice, with an older boss who both supervised me (when I needed supervising ) and praised my strengths very publically "Where's Wynne? She's the lamber around here."

Wynne

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Sammy82 — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:44:43 GMT

Another thing to have a think about is the skills you actually have. I was lacking in surgical confidence when leaving my 2nd job (my 1st job didn't have that many smallies) as I was left to do the simple things like small lumps and castrates, whilst the dedicated SA vet with 20yrs experience did anything more difficult, because she was 1. much quicker and we were busy 2. Often the large animal side was busy and I was needed there 3. She didn't have much confidence in her (very good) skills and left anything challenging for the boss if possible. So when I moved on I didn't feel surgically confident. In my next job again I wasn't doing that much routine surgery at first, but plenty of pyos, foreign bodies, emergency haemangiosarcoma laparitomies etc..When I suddenly realised that I was coping well with all these more complicated cases my confidence with routine surgery became much better. Maybe locuming isn't the right thing to do in your situation, but a different job with better support will boost your confidence. Have you thought about doing an internship, maybe at the PDSA as suggested?

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Bibs — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:24:36 GMT

The idea of locuming is stressful and I definitely get a feeling of anxiety when starting at a new place but the reality has been generally positive. The worst things are finding out how a new computer system works, where drugs are on the shelf and finding out what the culture is re things like nurses taking blood samples etc. Most of the stress is just anticipation. I had an issue where at two PDSAs I was encouraged to book non urgent blood samples in for a nurse appointment and when I did the same at a third PDSA one of the nurses complained about me booking them for her to do. That sort of thing is irritating but I found it still a positive experience.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Anthony Todd — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:17:44 GMT

If it is just a "lack of confidence or skill" then I would suggest a charity would be a good place to move to.

When you've done 100 cat spays you can climb mountains; when you've done 1000 you're there.

The good operators are usually the ones who teach best, but you might have to ask them to go a bit slower.....

Lots of basic surgery and consults with people who've done a lot and can mentor you without you being under pressure.

Locuming would be the last move I'd suggest. Everything thrown at you, different kit [probably bad] different drugs, different computer systems, aggressive staff and the stuff and clients no one else wants to touch.

For those lacking confidence in their ability it's got to be the last thing I'd suggest.

With exceptions, we all start with low confidence and low skills, I certainly did, [No comments Gillian....] so practise and ask, the nice ones teach the best.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Clair Firth — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:05:08 GMT

I am coming at this post from the exact opposite direction. I have just left my pharmaceutical (I assume that is what the OP means by "industry") job after 15yrs! I started studying vetmed at the age of 30 and worked 2 afternoons/evening a week for my company in R&D alongside my studies. I have only just graduated as a vet so I cannot comment on the problems the OP is facing in practice but I can comment on the "grass is always greener" aspect!

Industry is all about the money, nothing else, just money! They pretend it's all about the patients (whether animal or human, mine were human) but in meetings the management levels will make comments about how it's good that certain medications need to be given more frequently as we will make more money! Projects have to be finished at double-quick speed for no other reason than to keep the shareholders happy (and to hell with the employees who work weekends/bank holidays and until midnight.....for no extra hourly pay or overtime but, if they are lucky, for a one-off bonus!). This summer no-one from my dept was allowed to go on holiday (whether we had kids or not) and worked all hours......only to be told by a laughing executive that "it's a good thing we don't have to pay you overtime or the company would be bankrupt"!

Of course I realise that the pay is generally better than in general practice, but the pressures are there too. And I worked in the relatively calm atmosphere of R&D.....I cannot imagine what kind of stress everyone in marketing is under, sales and the actual reps going out to practices must be going through hell.

I'm not saying that pharma jobs are always a nightmare, or that the companies don't have ethics. They do, and there are plenty of examples where they have done good, but at the end of the day it's all about MONEY! (If it wasn't then plenty of tropical diseases would have a cure by now, or at least an effective vaccine)

Good luck to the OP - I hope you find what you are looking for

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:14:20 GMT

I actually can't think of anything more stressful than locuming. I have the greatest admiration for someone who can walk into a strange practice and be expected to take over immediately. Those who think it is an easy option clearly have no intention of doing a decent job and probably won't be asked back. That said my first job after graduation was a sole charge locum - I coped, even thrived but responsibilities and expectations were a lot lower 40 years ago!!

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

ALASDAIR MATHIESON — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:42:28 GMT

Has the OP ever been to Inverness? That's getting away from it all.......

Thanks Michael, Inverness here. I actually wonder if the OP needs to take a break - as I have previously said, this feeling of disillusionment appears to be very common now, and vets seem to be leaving the profession rather than applying for another job. There is something fundamentally wrong in a lot of practices now, and in my view, RCVS needs to pick up on it and help. Maybe forget PSS and CPD etc, and get a bit more basic

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:13:37 GMT

Has the OP ever been to Inverness? That's getting away from it all.......

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:14:59 GMT

Take a break; burnout is not healthy. PM me if you want to talk, or ring the vet helpline. Bottling it up isn't good!

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:22:15 GMT

I have considered locuming when the pressure is on. It seems a great idea to be able to walk away from a job every few weeks. When I really think hard most of the appeal goes.

New people, new systems of working, new accommodation etc mean I would be outside my comfort zone every few weeks. I would be happier working shorter hours but only in local practices. Perhaps later on!

Perhaps locum or change jobs but accept that if it is not working after 3 months then you are free to move on. There are loads of nice places to work. It is the people that make a practice, not a logo or brand name.

If you like the work but not the job then change. There are practices screaming out for vets with experience. We would kill for a part-timer here!

You are in control so do what you want but be prepared to move around if necessary. The next job may be wonderful!

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Bibs — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:19:26 GMT

I used to feel a bit like this. The main problem was I'd been in the same job for years and the same grinding routine every day with no progression in my skills or career. I couldn't see anything to aim for and my negative frame of mind started to turn into a very negative outlook towards clients and the job in general. I used to think all clients were rude and awkward but the truth is most are friendly and easy to deal with. Working for a few good practices and a couple of good PDSAs boosted my confidence a lot (there have been a couple of crap places so its a gamble). I'd say locuming worked for me because I had a reasonable amount of surgical confidence (with common things) but I think at least looking for a different job with some decent support and leadership might be worth while. One of the first places I locumed had a brilliant head nurse who was confident and helpful in just the right way. She handled any issues with clients complaining about money or anything else firmly and it made me feel different about everything. She and the other staff would back me all the way I felt. I read something the other day that said that good leadership should make you feel safe and I think that is missing in a LOT of practices and you can feel lost and alone quite easily. If you get a job with good leadership it might change your whole outlook. Of course looking at other ways you can use your skills and degree does no harm too. Liz

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:58:20 GMT

Agree with Neil. I worked part time in several different practices for a few years when care for elderly parents made full time work impossible. A lot of adjustment todo - especially as the ethos of the various practices differed a lot - in some I worked to a standard, in others to a price. I had 14 years experience, and oodles of confidence by then. Try another normal practice job 1st. Good luck

Wynne

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:37:25 GMT

Several discussions on this in the past. Locumming also seems like the 'easier' option, but it really isn't. I've spent this week in a new surgery to me. i had to gauge the time to get there, find the place, meet new people, then tackle a morning surgery with an ACTH stim test, a thyroid cat, another cat that turned into a thyroid cat, renal dysplasia that had come out of a hospital with an uncertain diagnosis and a plan and so it went on. All of these had detailed histories that needed picking through and then I had to do the right thing. The surgery in question is a branch with a nurse there on one day out of the 3, I worked there, I had no-one to ask face to face. This added to finding everything and trying to second guess if the biochemistry went into heparin, serum or plain tubes. If you are feeling low in confidence, I genuinely feel that locum work is not the path to follow, you have a responsibility to owners and your employers. Neil.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:36:29 GMT

Francisco has the right of it. Get a new job, there are good ones out there! But locuming without a reasonable amount of self confidence is a bad idea. The best thing to do is give your notice - the feeling of relief will be palpable - and look for a decent job. Be prepared to move - and decide what sort of practice you want to work for. Then apply selectively ..... This approach worked for me after a less than ideal job that shook my belief in my vocation and I'm nearly 19 years in now and still happy. Mostly.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:46:58 GMT

You worry coz u care! It isn't a bad thing!

Find another job first! Locuming isn't always an easy option, in some places you'll b easy to blame when things don't go well.

It will also give you the perspective to see if this isn't the right thing for you, or it is simply that u're in the wrong practice.

Don't get too anxious and don't ever think you're degree is a waste. The knowledge u've got is a precious thing that makes you stand up amongst others, ans nobody, NO-ONE, can challenge that!

Find a diversion, so your job is not always there. Most of us have been there!

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Sammy82 — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:43:41 GMT

Anon, I feel being in quiet a similar situation to you. Have you only worked in this one practice? Maybe by locuming you might find a practice with better support that suits you better, and you will find out which of the aspects of veterinary work are unavoidable and which ones are specific to the practice you are in. Just send me a private message if you want to talk in private.

Michael you are so right about lambs, when working in mixed practice I really enjoyed lambings and most calvings. Although their timing could be better s

ometimes, 3am is not appreciated.

Re: to locum while tring to find an industry job or to give up??

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:12:10 GMT

Become a farm vet? It's lambing time - baby lambs make everyone smile.Cows are brilliant.

Have you got small hands?