Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:35:38 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Germany then became the powerhouse of Europe whilst the UK labored under the debts created in financing WW2, with the last debt being paid last year if memory serves me right?[/quote]

Don't know if it is related, but I inherited some 3.5% War Stock from my grandfather (Mum always called it War Loan). Used to get a cheque for 'interest' twice a year. Got a letter last month saying the scheme was ending and all stocks were being reimbursed, so will be getting a bit of money in March!

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:08:04 GMT

I'm talking about Jersey, not Germany. Jersey became prosperous because it had a low tax economy.

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:00:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Exactly. That's what made them poorer then. In the 70 years since, they've left us miles behind. What socialists never realise is that 100% of nothing is nothing.

Wynne

[/quote]

More to do with

In 1947, the Marshall Plan, initially known as the "European Recovery Program" was initiated. In the years 1947-1952, some $13 billion of economic and technical assistance—-equivalent to around $130 billion in 2006—were allocated to Western Europe. Despite protests from many beneficiaries, the Marshall Plan, although in the less generous form of loans, was in 1949 extended to also include the newly formed West Germany. In the years 1949-1952, West Germany received loans which totaled $1.45 billion, equivalent to around $14.5 billion in 2006.

Germany then became the powerhouse of Europe whilst the UK labored under the debts created in financing WW2, with the last debt being paid last year if memory serves me right?

Neil

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:28:29 GMT

Exactly. That's what made them poorer then. In the 70 years since, they've left us miles behind. What socialists never realise is that 100% of nothing is nothing.

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:36:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I'd say average prosperity in the UK was higher than in Jersey, back in 1945[/quote]

Damn the German occupation?

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:29:08 GMT

I'd say average prosperity in the UK was higher than in Jersey, back in 1945. They'd had to endure the National Socialists, we hadn't. After that, they had the sense to go for a low tax economy, so attracted the millionaires, and prosperity trickled down. We made the mistake of choosing a high tax, socialist economic model, and have been dropping in world rankings ever since.

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:24:04 GMT

When the UK has the same number of millionaires per hectare as Jersey, we will be able to match their financial model. A fairly close comparison would be the more affluent areas of London!

Have you seen the prices of property on Jersey? A three bedroom bungalow for £660000! If it is similar to Guernsey there are lower priced properties reserved for essential workers while they have jobs. If they stop working in these jobs they have to move to full price properties or leave the island.

The Channel Islands are not a good model at all for comparison.

I don't think removing VAT would be a good idea for the general public but I bet it would benefit businesses because I doubt the full 20% would be passed on to the client.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:10:54 GMT

is a vast improvement on 20%!

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Jersey manages perfectly well with no VAT and a 20% tax rate. Why can't we?

[/quote]

They do, it's called GST and is 5%.

The VAT for trades is more complicated. Your £10,000 bathroom is going to maybe 50% materials, 50% labour. £5000 of materials plus VAT is £6000. The builder can't claim that back. He takes £4000 for his labour and lets say is on a 25% profitability so makes £1000.

If he claims the VAT back on the materials his inputs have dropped £1000. He can now charge £9000 + VAT (£10,800) and still make £1000 on the job - the price increase to the customer is 8%. Now when he claims the VAT back on his van, tools, fuel etc his costs of operating will fall, so he could even chose to drop his labour rate if he wanted......

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:44:10 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Not least because I now have that jingle from the moonpig.com advert going round in my head, but it's been irreversibly changed to mooncup.com.

[/quote]

You bugger. Now I do too.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:20:07 GMT

Jersey manages perfectly well with no VAT and a 20% tax rate. Why can't we?

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:46:52 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Actually that is not true you can use a mooncup - lasts forever, saves the planet, and saves you a fortune! Plus many other advantages

http://www.mooncup.co.uk/

Also reusable sanitary pads - much more comfy, healthier, just bung in the wash along with the rest of your clothes - no bother at all!

(Sorry to hijack the thread!)

[/quote]

Not as sorry as me.

Not least because I now have that jingle from the moonpig.com advert going round in my head, but it's been irreversibly changed to mooncup.com.

Reminder: The anon account is ONLY for seeking help/advice/support from peers.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Gerry Henry — Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:39:08 GMT

Yes but remember he's been submitting accounts to HMRC for years, a sudden drop in t/over would be immediately picked up and questioned.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 19:15:22 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Small businesses whose customer base can't recover VAT (ie the public) builders, plumbers etc, will find that on hitting the £81k turnover limit their prices will increase by 20%, either that or they absorb it thereby reducing their profit considerably; this disincentive translates into dishonesty as they under declare their earnings, its happening everywhere; t/over of £80,999 fine, a new bathroom will cost £10,000, t/over of £81,001, that bathroom is now £12,000. Reduce the limit to zilch, everybody pays but much less.[/quote]

Yes, see what you mean. I reckon what would probably happen, though, is that the smaller business, artisan or trader, would just indulge (even more) in the black economy – 'pay me in cash, squire, I'll knock off two grand" (no VAT,and I won't declare it for income tax either!)

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 18:24:08 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]VAT is not a fair tax, it hammers small enterprises disproportionately,[/quote]

Not sure I understand your reasoning there.

Otherwise, your theory seems to work, but it would be a complete impossibility politically. The wicked evil party that taxed bread, baby milk and children's shoes (or "kids' shoes" as the tabloid press would say) would be un-electable.

[/quote]

Small businesses whose customer base can't recover VAT (ie the public) builders, plumbers etc, will find that on hitting the £81k turnover limit their prices will increase by 20%, either that or they absorb it thereby reducing their profit considerably; this disincentive translates into dishonesty as they under declare their earnings, its happening everywhere; t/over of £80,999 fine, a new bathroom will cost £10,000, t/over of £81,001, that bathroom is now £12,000. Reduce the limit to zilch, everybody pays but much less.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 15:22:01 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Strict rules such as 1-2 suitable pets[/quote]

Goldfish?

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Kate Richardson — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 14:40:01 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Interestingly, one health economy lecture I was at in the past asked the audience what the best possible single prescription is for retired people? A dog, ideally, or a cat. These people, statistically and repeatedly, live longer, have fewer hospital visits, fewer coronaries, strokes, mental health issues, and are physically fitter. Astonishing really. The vast amounts of money this could possibly save the NHS is mind-boggling. Now that would have been a better argument for the pensioner bit.[/quote]

Maybe there should be a government funded "grant" available that deserving pensioners could apply for financial assistance towards veterinary fees if needed plus a basic allowance towards preventative health care for their pet. Strict rules such as 1-2 suitable pets ie not for 3 great danes! Might make people think a bit more about getting an appropriate pet. Also provisions for care of the pet should they become unable to care for the pet short or long term as this often stops many old people getting a companion as they worry about what will happen to it if they get ill etc.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 13:53:35 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]VAT is not a fair tax, it hammers small enterprises disproportionately,[/quote]

Not sure I understand your reasoning there.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Gerry Henry — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 11:28:54 GMT

VAT should be charged on absolutely everything, no limited company should be allowed exemption, sole traders turning over more than the personal allowance should be registered; VAT is not a fair tax, it hammers small enterprises disproportionately, trip the £81k wire and its full on 20%; this is a huge disincentive to registering; the arbitrary nature of tax/not tax (is a Jaffa cake a biscuit - yes - or a cake - no ... unless your are HMRC) is completely ridiculous; by taxing all businesses and all products the rate of tax would drop to low single figures and the total HMRC take would increase. Increase the personal allowance to cater for the increase to the poor (food bills increasing) and there you go ... 'cept it won't happen.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:16:05 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]How about veterinary fees for commercial livestock though? Are the farmers claiming back the VAT on those anyway?[/quote]

That would greatly simplify the VAT system if business to business transactions could be done without VAT.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Tom Ward — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 16:15:57 GMT

+1 for VAT being entirely appropriate for the luxury that is pet ownership.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 13:49:40 GMT

[quote user="emma_j"]How about veterinary fees for commercial livestock though? Are the farmers claiming back the VAT on those anyway?[/quote]

Yes. As a child, I didn't know what VAT was for, but I knew that "mum's doing the VAT" meant that anybody who touched any of the papers (vet bills included) spread over the kitchen table, or broke her concentration would be chased out of the room.

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:46:47 GMT

I know I said that I wouldn't comment again on this thread, but:

a) too much information,

and

b) an already financially hard-pressed sector of the population is forced to grant the Government interest free loans. This is certainly harming animal welfare.

Wynne

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

emma_j — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:36:47 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Also reusable sanitary pads - much more comfy, healthier, just bung in the wash along with the rest of your clothes - no bother at all[/quote]

Hmmm. . If they were only my clothes maybe....

[/quote]

Not sure why the previous poster went anon just to mention reusable sanitary protection but no, really they're fine! Soak them first then bung them in the wash. But personally I'm much more of a mooncup fan. Also experimented with natural sponges (''sea pearls'') which are alright too. Much better for us and the environment than throwaway tampons and sanitary towels.

But anyway, I agree with the sentiment that sanitary protection should not be subject to VAT - we have no choice but to use it, they are not a luxury but a necessity, for HALF the population. Veterinary fees however - we do have a choice on those, I'm afraid. Owning a pet is a luxury.

How about veterinary fees for commercial livestock though? Are the farmers claiming back the VAT on those anyway?

Re: Should VAT on vet fees be dropped?

David Mills — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 16:52:41 GMT

I think you can tell the article has been written by a journalist and I suspect he has been invited to be controversial.

The VAT system is complex and exemption is not predicated on whether things are essential or luxury - look at betting, sports activities, art sales, books. There is a heavy political aspect to it as well. The author does not think, it seems, that services should be VAT exempt because animals are essential - it is because people, in his mind, struggle to afford vet bills in any case without the VAT. He does not, as some seem to have taken it as, suggest that pets are essential and therefore VAT exempt (partly because no such rule exists).

The human right point is more subtle in that it tries to lump in pets with family life - Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. This is arguable, certainly, though he does not expand this point sufficiently, but it would make an interesting ethical-legal debate. Not saying I agree that owning a pet is a right, but it is arguable. But again, I don't think he's making that point.

Now, his premise for VAT exempting is improving animal welfare. However, not working in the industry I think he misunderstands - I rarely see clients who don't come in because they're waiting for their paycheck - they don't come in because they're either doing something preferable, or they don't want to pay. The ones who are worried and without money seem to come in anyway and then can't pay by the time they get back to reception. This is a bit journalistic licensing I think.

Interestingly, one health economy lecture I was at in the past asked the audience what the best possible single prescription is for retired people? A dog, ideally, or a cat. These people, statistically and repeatedly, live longer, have fewer hospital visits, fewer coronaries, strokes, mental health issues, and are physically fitter. Astonishing really. The vast amounts of money this could possibly save the NHS is mind-boggling. Now that would have been a better argument for the pensioner bit.