Holding ashes

Re: Holding ashes

alphavet — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 12:15:01 GMT

I'm lucky enough to have a fantastic and thoroughly professional pet crematorium nearby. We recommend them to our clients but make it clear that they are free to use a crematorium of their choice. We will store the body for a week or so. If the client wants individual crem then we call to arrange collection of the body and pass on the owners details (with their permission of course). Then the crematorium arranges full payment before they collect the body from us. I just charge for the PTS. We get great feedback from the clients about how kind the crematorium people are - but they always manage to get payment as well! After realising what the actual costs are, a few clients call back to request mass crem. If they end up not paying me for that, it's not such a big deal and (usually) they have already paid me for the actual euthanasia. I like how this system separates me from all the angst and time involved with cremations and chasing any debt afterwards. I also think it looks good and transparent that the practice doesn't rely on "selling" private creams to make a profit. Hopefully we have made enough profit from the patient/client by then! The ashes can be collected by the client from either the crematorium or the surgery, or they can elect to have ashes delivered directly to them. Before we started using this crematorium, I would have been unlikely to send the body for individual crem without being paid first. I've had several situations similar to those that others have described - poor people prepared to pay a lot more for cremation of their dead pet than they ever did while it was alive! It doesn't make much sense, but who am I to judge? If they can come up with the money then why shouldn't they be allowed to get their pets ashes back? In these situations I do encourage the client to take a few days to think about it before we send the body anywhere. Once they're not so upset, having the ashes back can seem a lot less important. In any case, I think withholding the ashes is pretty pointless - they aren't worth anything at all to anyone else, and refusing to hand them over is only going to cause anger and bad PR.

Re: Holding ashes

Bob Russell — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:54:52 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

This red star thing is fun.

[/quote]

Nope I can destroy a red star with a single click of a mouse! That's fun!

Re: Holding ashes

Anthony Todd — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:35:53 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

This red star thing is fun.

[/quote]

[groan, sigh] We'll have to have a special thread for the children I suppose......

Joking of course but they really serve no purpose and won't change anything or anybody.

PS I've just redstarred myself which shows how stupid and irritating it is.

Re: Holding ashes

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:46:39 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Next day they telephoned and requested individual cremation, but became very irate when told if they can afford that they will have to pay for the OOH call out and PTS - they came in and paid the £300 or so in cash the next day. P*** takers. They were able to pay all along, but would rather not have.[/quote]

Happens all the time. There's been a few occasions where people have signed a consent form aggreeing to an estimate, then saying they can't pay at collection. When their pleas obviously are getting nowhere. they pull a huge wadge of cash out of their pockets and pay.

Re: Holding ashes

Clive Ansell — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:25:51 GMT

I was doing a locum where the practice had a policy of seeing cases OOH, where clients were unable to pay, without charging. It is not made common knowledge and is reserved really for genuine cases of hardship and for genuine emergencies only, and only euthanasia is offered.

I saw such a case at midnight; collapsed and off legs GSD that walked in and according to clinical notes had had CDRM for years rather than months or weeks. On benefits, no money at all so on that basis I agreed to the free OOH PTS. Next day they telephoned and requested individual cremation, but became very irate when told if they can afford that they will have to pay for the OOH call out and PTS - they came in and paid the £300 or so in cash the next day. P*** takers. They were able to pay all along, but would rather not have.

Re: Holding ashes

Gerry Henry — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:06:38 GMT

This red star thing is fun.

Re: Holding ashes

Bob Russell — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:09:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

How does the red star I just gave you have any relevance without a reason or justification?

Without some sort of explanation we won't understand, or I won't, at least.

[/quote]

I did write red starred and not red starring! A red star without comment is pretty pointless.

Re: Holding ashes

james herriot lied — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:27:07 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

How does the red star I just gave you have any relevance without a reason or justification?

Without some sort of explanation we won't understand, or I won't, at least.

[/quote]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

I just gave you a red star. Basking in the warm fuzzy afterglow even as I type.

Can I have one now?

Re: Holding ashes

rachaelyost — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:57:29 GMT

When I worked at the PDSA we has a client wanting a home visit for a pts as they had no transport and refused to get on the bus. It was not an emergency pts. They were so insistent and eventually we agreed to pay for a taxi to bring them into the hospital. When the arrived the dog was PTS'd and then the clients decided they wanted private cremation. I informed them that before we could do that the would have to pay for the taxi that brought them to the surgery as if they could afford private crem they could afford to pay for the taxi. They promptly changed their minds and went for communal crem and didn't leave a donation!. They were also upset we refused to pay for a taxi to get them home.

We have a practice policy that if they don't pay the pet stays in the freezer until it has been paid this is for long and short term clients as we have been stung by both.

People should pay for the service we provide.

Re: Holding ashes

Gerry Henry — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:32:29 GMT

Play nicely children.

Re: Holding ashes

Anthony Todd — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:27:00 GMT

How does the red star I just gave you have any relevance without a reason or justification?

Without some sort of explanation we won't understand, or I won't, at least.

Re: Holding ashes

Bob Russell — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:21:12 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="astraldream"]

Funeral payments are not always required BEFORE the funeral so it's incorrect to say that the funeral would not go ahead. The services would go ahead and there is no way you could hold the ashes and say sorry pay me before you get your Mother.

[/quote]

Arlo, just another example of a stupid red-star. another one previously, same poster, both sounded fine to me.

They've got to be banned unless the red-star is qualified in a post or it is for a personal attack! or just offensive!

[/quote]

The red starred poster has offered a perfectly proper opinion. Just balance the red star with five stars and the red star goes away.

Re: Holding ashes

Richard Carter — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 11:52:05 GMT

interesting the different prices for funerals in UK - just been involved with a cremation service in South Africa - person had been in care so the care home had a small chapel, no body/coffin, just flowers and photographs for the memorial service and cremation - £900

Re: Holding ashes

Anthony Todd — Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:30:02 GMT

[quote user="astraldream"]

[/quote]

Arlo, just another example of a stupid red-star. another one previously, same poster, both sounded fine to me.

They've got to be banned unless the red-star is qualified in a post or it is for a personal attack! or just offensive!

Re: Holding ashes

J G Wray — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 22:37:26 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Until that point multiple comments on the pages about how heartless the vets are, the charity has reported the original vet to the RCVS and has now set up the petition FAO RCVS. Both practices been lambasted and given a bad name by the charity and all their supporters (at one point telling everyone to go on their facebook page and rate them badly). One person (perhaps in a less than tactful way) says vets are well within their rights to withold the ashes, gets it full-bore from all the crazies on the internet.[/quote] On a slightly tangential note, who would say this complaint/ petitioning to the RCVS is vexatious and frivolous? Vex and friv is regulatory organisation speak. I ask because RCVS publishes stats on complaints, particularly those which go nowhere at the moment as a justification for the ARD process. If vex and friv complaints were stripped out just how many complaints would be left for RCVS to use as evidence of widespread misconduct of not quite the level requiring a DC process? Just askin'

Re: Holding ashes

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:24:45 GMT

Interesting article...thanks Clive!

Re: Holding ashes

Clive Ansell — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 20:11:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

My understanding is that if no-one will pay for a funeral, the council will dispose of the body to prevent it becoming a health hazard - but they won't pay for coffin,ceremony, etc - just the basic cremation, but without the preliminary service/ceremony in the crematorium chapel.

Wynne

[/quote]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/20/paupers-funeral-austerity-britain-soaring-costs-bury-loved-ones

Re: Holding ashes

Gerry Henry — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 18:57:05 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

"condone or promote this type of practice" does sound a little RCVS'ish but could also be solicitor speak!

I would hate to think that anyone at the RCVS would come out with such a daft comment but not sure it would be the first time!

[/quote]

As one who has been through the RCVS wringer for the last 14 months let me assure you, RCVS speak is solicitor speak, 100%.

Re: Holding ashes

Gerry Henry — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 18:26:20 GMT

The RCVS could have been more help though. Apparently, according to the charity, 'they do not condone or promote this type of practice and were saddened to hear of its presence and how it effects the genuine animal lovers across this country' I'm quoting here, it is possible they were paraphrasing but really it would have been nice to have a gentle nod from the RCVS that bills do need to be paid

Which is exactly what I would expect from the RCVS, cowardly, remote, anti practitioner and ready to cave in to noisy clients at the first hint of trouble. Four years and counting.

Re: Holding ashes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:06:20 GMT

ps to above In these circumstances,the ashes won't be returned.

Wynne

Re: Holding ashes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 16:45:43 GMT

Wynne

Re: Holding ashes

Bob Russell — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:29:31 GMT

Most funeral directors require a deposit 'up front'. If they have any sense this will cover the bulk of the costs so probably not worth the bad publicity if ashes are retained.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217219/Funeral-costs-Bodies-dead-left-mortuary-months-families-afford-bury-them.html

As with any business the contract will be with the person arranging the funeral. No funeral is an emergency and the funeral director is entitled to refuse to take on the work.

If there is an amount outstanding then they have the right to go through the small claims court if necessary.

Still would and have kept ashes here until the bill is paid. We have also been left with ashes and an outstanding bill.

Re: Holding ashes

astraldream — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:14:11 GMT

Re: Holding ashes

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:54:17 GMT

[quote user="astraldream"]Although i do agree the financial situation needs to be resolved i think if a funeral director did the same to dear old Granny's ashes there would be different answers on this thread.[/quote]

My receptionist's husband is an undertaker. As Clive said, the situation they have mirrors ours. People often say 'well, I've no money but obviously the state will pay... afterall, he'll have to be buried!' Wrong. No money, no funeral. There are small grants available (about £800) but they won't pay for the funeral most people want. Undertakers get just as frustrated as we do with people not planning for the truly inevitable! The best bit is that these grants are only available for certain benefits holders etc.... so some people who learn this once the funeral is sorted will then cancel the whole thing and get another relative (who is on benefits) to go to a different undertakers...... sound familiar...???

Thus granny's ashes wouldn't be available to be collected in the first place......

Re: Holding ashes

Clive Ansell — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:59:15 GMT

A friend of mine is a funeral director and they sometimes have the same problems that we do with bad debtors. Their bills are usually much higher, often several thousands. He tells me they will normally give up to 3 months (sometimes more by agreement) grace in the form of free credit, but at that point they expect to be paid promptly. Clients enter in to an signed agreement to that effect, and if they renege there are imposed financial penalties charges and interest. If they need pursue through the courts, they do. They also have a list of banned clients or families.

As an aside the family firm is; A Dyer and sons, Studley, Warwickshire.

Another scenario I recently came across; a clients elderly dog was put to sleep, costs were given and agreed to, and an individual cremation was requested. Client later changed their mind and no longer wanted the ashes. Practice left with a tub of ashes and not been paid. The only logical solution is payment in advance for such a service -anything other is a no brainer.