out of hours

Re: out of hours

rjhvet — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 21:19:37 GMT

I agree with earlier posts, main problem is non-vet partners. I don't so much have a problem with vet partner not doing on call, that's their choice , as long as doesn't impact on others.

We work 1 in 3, don't do half days as in previous jobs we found we never got them , or ended up leaving at 3-4 pm, waste of time.

We have 3 day weekend following weekend on call, and only work full never half weekends. Also if duty vet had hideous duty weekend ( very rare) , get them home as soon a possible, at very least sit down with tea / biscuits etc. It's about being sensible .

Re: out of hours

rjhvet — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 21:08:37 GMT

You're not doing on call for free, it is included in your salary.

Friend of mine got fed up with her small animal vets moaning about on call ( farm / equine guys just got on with it) and they persuaded her to use an ooh provider. They were all somewhat shocked when 5 staff ( incl vets / nurses / nursing assistants) were made redundant and remaining had a salary cut as their contracts clearly stated that salaried position included duty rota........... Just didn't need to staff at those levels anymore when not covering ooh.

A previous employer advised me that vets would never be paid a percentage of work undertaken ooh to protect against clients saying " you only did that for the money".

Possibly consider a payment for every client seen ( and increase the client fee to cover it), after they've paid their bill of course.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

Re: out of hours

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 23:24:41 GMT

Please keep us informed, and don't under rate yourself.

Re: out of hours

An On MRCVS — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 22:31:47 GMT

Thanks for the replies,

given me things to think about.

I think the time off is the way forwards, I cant afford a pay cut in any way and also cant move out of the 'area' and local job opportunities aren't plentiful.

If I stay I wouldn't want them to go down the farmed out ooh option but as has been said this + weekend clinics may be a good option. extra pay would be nice but blood and stone come to mind.

finally got to bed at 5am and started again at 830. managed to get an early finish. bit knackered and back on tues am and on call again - oh joy.

haven't had a pay rise this year anyway (had below inflation last year) as they have been mooting the extra half day a month (starting at 2ish) but yet to start (3mths later). If I am going to be a flunky for the rest of my career then a corporate might not be a bad idea. not thinking vets for pets though, already looked at that and I think not.

clinically tho I am not a flunky, senior clinician in the practice (vet partner doesn't have a clinical role) various areas that I excel in to a 'second opinion' level. I get second opinions from other practices (from vets not unhappy clients) for these areas. I am passionate about furthering the practice in different areas to build it up (ultimately for others who don't have to work so hard) so may be I need to use this to my advantage

I need a rebalance, unfortunately finances don't allow a quick drop in days so a bit of negotiation will be needed, and starting a practice my self just isn't viable with my finances at the moment (I'm sure a common problem) Realistically as has been said in another thread I don't think that I will be getting the 'tap on the shoulder', so as an associate I need to look after number 1 for once.

time for some sleep

thanks for being there for a moan at!

Re: out of hours

Gareth C. — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 17:25:32 GMT

I think that if you do oohrs its not so much the money you need back its the time. The practice will have an income and need to spend it on the outgoings of the practice. Most places that do OOhrs will give some time off in lieu. We do our own oohrs 1:4. We all have a half day off a week and following a weekend on call get the monday pm off (unless someone else is on holiday like today so I am at work on my half day) . On top of this we also get a friday pm off 1 in 4 weeks. We work a 1:4 rota. This seems to give a reasonable work life balance. If you go in hard for a financial cut then they may just say OK but then next yr your pay rise may be a bit less.... I think its pretty mean to do a 1:3 with no proper half days etc! Having said that when we were a 3 vet practice it made the rota so much worse. 1:4 is much better. Failing that and if you like the job and can afford to go to a 4 day week.

Re: out of hours

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 15:20:16 GMT

The non-veterinary partners sound like the cause of your problem.

Wynne

Re: out of hours

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:29:04 GMT

I'm totally with Gillian here, don't underestimate your employability, lots of practices are looking for experienced vets. Even if you considered working part time for more than one practice you might end up earning as much (maybe with fewer work related benefits but the work life balance would improve). When I was a newish mum returning to work, my previous job had disappeared (practice sold) so I wrote to 4 or 5 local practices. I found it easy to pick up part time work, it fits in well for many surgeries and can be more cost effective than going up to an extra full time vet.

Re: out of hours

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:11:09 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"], think that doesnt help the situation because they know my feelings, what I want for the future and that moving isnt really an option at the moment so no real cards to play.[/quote]

You are so wrong! Replacing you will be extremely difficult. Experienced vets who are willing to work your rota for your wage?????? Hmmmm. You may not want to move, but they would have to be stupid not to think that it is a possibility.Nothing is guaranteed.

You mention that there are non-vet partners, who I assume will be gaining some form of an income from the business? No wonder the vet rota is awful! Too many chiefs.......

Re: out of hours

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:31:53 GMT

Our OOH provider (local private practice) costs about £5000 a year. When we stopped doing OOH we introduced a one hour clinic on a Sunday morning for urgent cases and check ups only ( slightly higher consulting fee) and this has been very successful financially. If we did our own OOH I suspect we'd need at least one more vet. Therefore, I suspect the cost of doing our own OOH, both financially and with the difficulty with recruiting, would be much higher!!!

Re: out of hours

ChrisBVSc — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:03:01 GMT

Your rota sounds pretty unpleasant, and I'm not surprised you get fed up! I'm sure it doesn't help knowing your salary is below SPVS average despite all the work you do, plus the partners & nurses get more time off (been there - being an assistant vet doing on call makes you a prime candidate for being shafted in my experience).

Basically if that's how it makes you feel, why not have a serious think about moving to a job with either less on call or none, even if it involves more upheaval it will be worth it - that's what I did.

Re: out of hours

bob lehner — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:40:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]we do a 1:3 nights and weekends, the weekend includes friday night, we get 1.5 hrs off monday after the weekend[/quote]

That sounds pretty grim to me if you have been busy (especially if on the Friday night!). A half day on the Monday at least would seem to be only reasonable.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I get just below average spvs salary. turning over 5x income. been doing this 16 years and am getting rather grumpy about it[/quote]

Unless you have a very good reason for being tied to this practice (e.g. you absolutely need to live in the immediate area, or there is a realistic likelihood of becoming a partner) I think you need to have a good look at your future career pathway - long-term full-time assistantships are generally unlikely to be financially rewarding - and you'll never have any control of your own destiny.

Re: out of hours

Wren — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:24:11 GMT

The one thing I would caution against is a Monday off following a weekend on call. If you see a lot of cases over the weekend these inevitably need following up/handing over, especially anything you have hospitalised, and it can cuase communication problems/oversights if the vet that worked the weekend isn't there at all on the Monday morning. Plus if you're the vet having the day off you can spend the day wondering how X case is getting on, or if you remembered to tell the vet taking over about Y.

Anonymous, you said that you're not all that busy - I'd definitely push for extra time off, which needn't involve a pay cut. In a previous job we had a half day a week, and the boos changed this to a full day a week, every week, for every vet, with the stipulation that we got all our work done in 4 days instead of 4.5. There was an immediate change in quality of life - there is a huge difference between working a half day (which can mean rushing around trying to cram everything in in order to get away at a sensible time) and having a full day off (so if you're still in your pyjamas at 10am no-one cares!). Staff motivation increased and it was generally a much better workplace. This was a very mixed practice too, not a SA one.

Currently I work 1:2 (nights and weekends), with a half day every week. It's not too onerous (actually less so than my previous 1:4 rota as it's much quieter OOH). Being restricted in what I can do when on call is the biggest problem. However when my colleague is on holiday (and vice versa) I do end up working 24/7, sometimes for a fortnight at a time. I am coping pretty well, but equally will be quite pleased when we get a third vet!

Re: out of hours

Braden Collins — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:20:00 GMT

We pay our vets around $40 to be on call, then 50% of professional fees when they are called in. It means they get something basic for disrupting their night by having the phones, and if they have a busy weekend they at least get a bit of extra pay - a busy weekend can even lead to $2000 extra pay.

We have a policy of they get paid when the clinic gets paid, so it means they are more likely to ask for payment at the time of the consultation.

They don't get any extra time off after a weekend on call, but only do a 4 days week anyway so a day off is never far away.

Remember though if your current salary includes an allowance for doing on call, you may drop your base salary to switch to a percentage payment.

Re: out of hours

Colin Thomson — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:19:13 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Vets Now charge an annual fee. It varies according to caseload and area, but I understand it is in the region of a full time salary (around £20-40k per practice per year) - then obviously they keep anything they make on top of it.[/quote]

Vets Now charge us in the region of £400 per month to use their service. So about £5k a year. Then there's the cost to the practice of the lost OOH work, which we calculated might be around £30k per annum before we started. That was for a 5.5 vet FTE SA unit. So maybe your overall figure of £20 - £40k is correct, but the set fee is nowhere near that. The actual loss in revenue was a lot less than that, as we started with routine Sat PM and Sunday surgeries at the same time. There's a group of cases that end up not going to Vets Now when they know we'll be open the next day - . either because of the cost or its not that serious and they'd rather see us.

Colin

Re: out of hours

David Mills — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:11:27 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]what would be the figures for sending the ooh to another practice on average for a 4 vet equivalent practice (not that we can but would be interesting to know), do places like vetsnow charge a flat fee to do the cover (and then charge the client obviously) or is it purely from the clients.[/quote]

Vets Now charge an annual fee. It varies according to caseload and area, but I understand it is in the region of a full time salary (around £20-40k per practice per year) - then obviously they keep anything they make on top of it.

I haven't read through the whole thread but places I've worked would pay commission (ex vat) on the amount you 'earn' the practice over a set amount over a set period - for instance >1k on a Saturday and you take 40% of what is made over that. This has the advantage of rewarding you for the busy weekends but not harming the practice financially in the quieter periods. I think asking for a fee for every call out is unrealistic in your situation given the size of the practice. You say that it needs to get busier - so maybe go for more days off in lieu as this may be easier.

It also bemuses me why more practices don't have consulting periods at weekends - i.e. say 10-12 and 5-7 where people who want to see the vet come during those times at weekends. This saves the ball ache of having your day disrupted sequentially, and means you can reasonably manage your time better. Making it more expensive to see someone outside of that time is a fairly easy sell.

Overall beware what you wish for. Contracting out OOH or reducing it can lead to unforeseen consequences - friends of mine have seen vets laid off after a practice has outsourced its OOH as the practice is effectively paying for another full time vet.

Re: out of hours

An On MRCVS — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:57:47 GMT

there are 3 partners 1 vet 2 non vet, the vet does take a small part in the ooh but the rota does vary, it is mostly a 1:4 for weekends except for holiday cover and weekdays are a 1:3 (mostly) sometimes a 1:4.

as I have said the ooh is mostly quiet but as everyone gets we do get some very busy nights and weekends, of course not unmanageable as such but it would be nice to have some more time off and/or pay. I'm not tearing my hair out and not coping, i've been doing this too long to do that but I am getting fed up of average pay (spvs) and no decent time off or pay for the on call.

think I need to deal with this when I have had an evening off and plan how to come up with a workeable solution.

I take on board what you mean Stephen about corporates

what would be the figures for sending the ooh to another practice on average for a 4 vet equivalent practice (not that we can but would be interesting to know), do places like vetsnow charge a flat fee to do the cover (and then charge the client obviously) or is it purely from the clients. just out of interest.

just finishing up with an rta, hopefully will get some sleep now

Re: out of hours

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:51:07 GMT

Anon I think you are being ripped off. All you have to sell is your time and expertise, it seems you are doing a strenuous OOH rota with below average remuneration and working more than average by some way even for people who do their own OOH. While time passes you by and you get more tired by the work you are doing, it is getting you nowhere personally

From what you have said you have salaried and non salaried partners in charge, yet you still have a 1:3 rota - does this mean the partners don't participate in the work?

I think it's time you moved on - gillian made some good points I doubt anything you can say would change things for you, best to move on. There is nothing wrong with working for a corporate so long as you re treated well, the hours suit and the ethics are in line with your own. so no different than working for anyone else.

Re: out of hours

Kate Richardson — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 21:13:31 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]seriously thinking about jumping ship but nothing but corporates around here, think that doesnt help the situation because they know my feelings, what I want for the future and that moving isnt really an option at the moment so no real cards to play.[/quote]

Unhappy vets don't make for productive vets- that's a card you can play

Re: out of hours

Busybee — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:49:00 GMT

We do a mix of what has been described before:

Mixed practice, 70% small, 30% large but higher proportion of large animal work over winter/spring, especially OOH. 1 in 5 weekends and 1 in 4 weekday nights OOH - no weekday night OOH in the week leading up to a weekend on duty, unless covering for a vet on holiday. Monday off after working a weekend. Friday off the weekend before a weekend duty.

Friday night duty covered by a different vet to weekend duty vet, but if on call Friday night, we cover the branch morning surgery (8.30-10.30am) on the Saturday.

Salaries around average but no remuneration for OOH work. OOH can be very busy (worst weekend was in the practice 44 out of 48 hours!) or very quiet (last weekend, no calls at all and no hospitalised patients).

Although I wouldn't say I enjoy being on call, I feel it doesn't affect my family/social life too much at present and feel we get a fair amount of time off to make it all a bit more bearable. Not sure I'd feel the same with the OP's situation.

Re: out of hours

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:35:36 GMT

I would agree with Gillian, try to come up with a plan, and try to involve the other assistants too. They should then realise that there is a deep rooted problem, and it needs to be sorted. If you are doing a one in three rota, does that mean there are only 3 vets? As if so, I'm surprised your weekends are that busy. Are your OOH charges very low? Or do some vets not do weekends? We are a four vet practice, and I am one of the partners (with my husband). All of us do our full share of OOH (we are equine and SA, and rural, so opting out is not an option). Our weekends on do involve Friday to Monday, but every vet gets a full weekday off each week in addition to an extra day off the week running up to a weekend on duty. The assistants get a Friday off following a weekend on so they have a long weekend once a month. We all get the odd weekend from hell, but often have very quiet weekends too. We don't pay assistants any proportion of their OOH work, but feel we compensate in terms of time off. Sorry for lack of paragraphs, on an iPad.

Re: out of hours

Yantha Smyth — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:03:32 GMT

well put scarlet!

Re: out of hours

scarlet — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 18:41:51 GMT

there is no doubt that on call is much busier than it used to be 20 years ago in small animal practice . It is also far more intense. 20-30 yrs ago you would often see and treat and send home - these days many things are admitted , bloods run , imaging done and then fluids etc etc meaning far more time spent at the practice dealing with the case .

Because of this , i really feel that you are entitled to be paid for your time.

In my last (very busy) practice, we did all the on call and weekends , however you got the day off after the on call AND were paid - a £35 flat rate OR 50% of the call -out fees (not the treatment/drugs just the call out fee (whichever was greatest) so if call out fee was 100 you got 50 ( 3x call outs = 150!) - as long as the bill was paid in full

if you admit something then you got 25% of all professional fees/procedure fees ie fitting dog - call out fee % + 25% of the bloods fee + varying percentage of intensive care fee 25-50% of hourly fee ( monitoring for x hrs till settled)

if you do surgery then you can claim 25% of the ga and of the surgery, but no drugs or hospital fees. so for example a £1000 gdv could get you 250 -300 .

this comes out of the fees you generate . it means that the practice still does its own o/hrs which makes the practice owner and clients happy and the vets doing the work see the rewards for their work . Rather than trying to put clients off till the following day the enterprising amongst us were happy to see anal glands o/hrs as long as the client paid!!!

20-30yrs ago on call was part of what you were expected to do for your salary (which i feel was more generous than todays) and was rarely onerous. nowadays i feel that our salaries are generally very poor for the hours we put in ,and i think that as oncall has got so much busier and more demanding both technically and emotionally , that at the very least ,you should be paid extra for o/hrs.

i would start job hunting if the bosses wont listen to a reasonable request.

good luck

Re: out of hours

An On MRCVS — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 17:31:54 GMT

my situation is I am a small animal vet so luckily I dont have to do the long drives in the middle of the night to a calving, been there done that. In that way it is easier on the small animal side but still equally tiring.

i am just on a bit of a downer at the moment, think i need a holiday. a chance to walk the dog and take the kids out.

thanks for the replies, probably need to come up with a proposal, money obviously doesnt help in reality, time off is more important but if we have to do ooh then would be nice to get something extra out of it and has been said if we get a financial incentive then we are more likely to see people ooh. But mainly i would like a bit more time off, a 4 day week sounds lovely Gillian. splitting weekends is interesting and reduces the workload but increases the number of upset weekends so a bit of a balance.

will have to look at some ideas. I can see a pay cut on the horizon!

I think a lot of the problem here is a financial issue because as a practice we need to get busier and we are on that see saw of needing another vet but not being busy enough for one. We are sorting a new branch, which I have been pushing for ages and finally found them a site. Unfortunately it may lead to being even busier at night and weekends but hopefully will increase footfall to enable them to 'afford' another vet but who knows. As I have said it feels like I am building up someone elses empire and have a horrible feeling they will flog it to jonny corporate before i get a chance to go further but that is another rant! (vet partner sees almost zero clients and no surgery + very little office work other than ebay- i'm not kidding) so in the mean time i need to improve my work life balance as currently the practice going further isn't helping me.

seriously thinking about jumping ship but nothing but corporates around here, think that doesnt help the situation because they know my feelings, what I want for the future and that moving isnt really an option at the moment so no real cards to play.

Re: out of hours

Sammy82 — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 16:19:51 GMT

I feel the same about it as you Yantha. I used to work 5 days a week, 1 night a week on call and every 3. weekend on call with no half day/day off to compensate. If the weekend was busy or calls just stupidly timed (area 2hrs drive from east to west, mixed practice) this was very exhausting and often I just felt drained by Monday morning, still having to struggle trough a whole

day of work, trying not to make mistakes and not be grumpy at clients. Often I felt too tired to drive safely and at several occassions was secretly hoping for the police to stop me and send me off to bed when out on a late night call on Sunday night after two nights with little sleep :-(

The OOH work just felt not appreciated. As the contract

did not specify working hours apart from the usual exemption from 45hrs max. clause, terms like overtime had no meaning and where neither counted nor aknowledged in any way. Even though I wouldn't go back to this for all the money in the world as I don't want to end up wrapped around a tree on my way back from a calving, some financial reward for OOH work would at least be some motivation.

Re: out of hours

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 15:55:09 GMT

I was avoiding commenting on your specific rota as we didn't know the background. However, in my first job the partners had much more time off than the assistants, and my rota was similar to yours. It was annoying and utterly exhausting. I feel for you! Personally, I think someone of your experience deserves listening to and making changes for. But it isn't up to me!

I doubt getting more pay will help you ... no amount of money is worth a bad rota...you don't get to live your life properly.

At our practice the full time assistants work a 4 day week and every 3rd Saturday morning. We don't do our own OOH. We have a 1 hour Sunday morning clinic for urgent cases only, which they do every 6 weeks. For that they get the following Friday afternoon off... Meaning they then work a 3 1/2 day week with a long weekend!

You have to decide whether genuine practice economics, or being selfish and greedy, is dictating the actions of your bosses.