Je suis Charlie!

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:53:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Je suis un vrai "Charlie"[/quote]

Re: Je suis Charlie!

J G Wray — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 17:19:16 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]It's also about 'cojones' of course.[/quote]

Just to make the French position even clearer

http://www.newstatesman.com/global-issues/2014/07/al-qaeda-earns-125m-ransom-payments-should-european-governments-stop-paying

Je suis un vrai "Charlie"

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:18:58 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

can anyone explain how creating caricatures assists a resolution of terrorism?

[/quote]

I believe that creating caricatures helps against those who decide not to respect their neighbour.

Instead of committing murder against someone who murdered someone you love, you're showing their own stupidity by humiliating them.

http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/2015/01/12/54b451e8e2704eb7518b4576.html

It's also about 'cojones' of course.

PS. For some terrorism is about those who commit a violent act against a society, if these terrorists consider that society oppressive, they'll call themselves freedom fighters. So no, not this, not anything will help against terrorism, because terrorists don't call themselves that.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:35:28 GMT

Gillian Whether the dispute is about religion or power, one certain thing is these people are truly evil.

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:10:09 GMT

Mariette Communists have also been responsible for murdering millions who disagree with their Marxist/Lenninist ideology. Remember what happened in the USSR under Lennin/Stalin

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:06:20 GMT

As Jonathon pointed out at the begining of this thread, the thousands kidnapped and murdered by Islamic fundamentalists in Nigeria should also be remembered.

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Wren — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 10:19:48 GMT

An oldie, but a goodie.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

J G Wray — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 07:35:33 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I think cartoons tend to trivialise these very serious topics[/quote]

They, by definiion. create caricatures. The French have been at it since at least Marie Antoinette and her associates and it indrectly fuelled the Terror that followed. Now, can anyone explain how creating caricatures assists a resolution of terrorism?

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 00:20:15 GMT

"I am Spartacus" (is that historical fact?) didn't help Spartacus. The Romans crucified the whole lot of them. The Appian Way was lined with crosses for miles.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 21:58:19 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I think the answer probably lies in cartoonists, comedians and editors everywhere uniting to challenge or satirise religion in all its forms such that it becomes more difficult for a terrorist to single out a target.[/quote]

This would be very cool, but terrorists have no need to single out a target. They just pick one. And It isn't just the journalists who work at a paper- the machine operators, canteen ladies, cleaners and all the rest are at risk too (look at the wikipedia entry for "Teebane bombing" if you want to see what the average terrorist's idea of a "legitimate target" is).

In fact, to the most swivel-eyed of the terrorists, I suspect that anyone who doesn't subscribe to their exact interpretation of their religion is a "legitimate target" so I suppose it doesn't matter....but I would probably think twice about working for, say, the BBC if it meant that I was checking under my car every morning.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:53:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The hugely offensive thing about that film was not that it made fun of Christianity, [/quote]It did not make fun of Christianity, indeed as I said previously it almost enshrined the birth of Jesus at the beginning or maybe you missed that bit. It is making fun out of religious dogma, blind faith and indoctrination. It also pokes fun at the Romans and terrorism. IMO one of the finest films ever made. You should watch Dogma next if you haven't already.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I still want to know what that cartoon, the coloured one that looked like something a pretentious fifth-former might scribble at the back of an exercise book , was all about.[/quote]I still can't believe that you seriously don't understand and I'm not going to be the one to state the obvious, perhaps someone else will unless you're just playing Devils Advocate.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:52:19 GMT

Lol.... Who decides what is funny?

I had a CV once where someone had listed as one of their interests 'the paranormal'. They could easily have put 'Christian', 'Jewish' or 'Muslim' instead, as it all means the same to me! I often find jokes that ridicule religion very funny actually.... As I often find religious people amusing! Religion is simply a lifestyle choice!

Anyway, getting onto a debate about religion is missing the point.... These terrorists are not fighting for their religion. As the IRA were not fighting for Catholicism. It is all about land and power.... Religion is simply used as an excuse.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:14:12 GMT

Total agreement with Evelyn

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:12:33 GMT

I suppose I prefer cartoons to be reserved for genuinely funny topics.

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 18:10:56 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"] The Life of Brian[/quote]

Sigh.

The hugely offensive thing about that film was not that it made fun of Christianity, but that the makers thought that crucifixion was something to joke about. Not to mention stoning to death. Do you want me to go into the details of death by crucifixion? You will need a strong stomach.

I'll defend the right of anybody to have opinions of any sort , and to express them too, however vile I find them. That is a right that has already been infringed upon in this country.

I'll not allow anybody the right to rush into an office with guns or a street with bombs and kill people.

Look, Arlo, I'll defend the right of anyone to make offensive comments. But decent people just don't do it without good reason. Can i offer that as a pithy summary?

(I still want to know what that cartoon, the coloured one that looked like something a pretentious fifth-former might scribble at the back of an exercise book , was all about. )

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 17:58:53 GMT

I definitely agree these issues should be discussed. I think cartoons tend to trivialise these very serious topics, which is why I dislike these cartoons - but the principle of free speach(written expression) is far more important than the fact that I find them distasteful - so I'll defend the right to publish them.

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 17:52:21 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Arlo. My attitude to contraception is well known...I therefore find your 1st cartoon unfunny - but I'll defend your right to print it. [/quote]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]2nd cartoon. Again I find paedophilia so evil that it's exceedingly non-funny, but I'll defend your right to print this cartoon, and also mine to say it's non-funny.[/quote]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]3rd cartoon. I am pretty laid back about homosexuality (it has the virtue of not contributing to the population explosion) but I'll also defend the rights of certain religious/cultural groups to say that they think it's wrong, even though I'll disagree with them - and your right to publish the cartoon.[/quote]

Wynne, you seem to be judging these cartoons on whether or not they are funny, which I think misses the point.

Like Evelyn, I found the first one momentarily amusing. I found the second and third more thought-provoking (not in a hugely deep way, admittedly) than funny. That's the point. Whether or not they are funny, cartoons make people pause for a moment and consider the issue they're dealing with. I'd argue that the population explosion is one of the biggest issues facing humanity, and the Catholic church is a significant contributor to the problem. Paedophilia has caused untold suffering amongst children, and again the church has been significantly guilty. That fact needs to remain front of mind in order to prevent it happening ever again. As to the third, well, it think it is thought-provoking, and somewhat ironic that the church should have homophobia (and the intolerance at the heart of it) in common with some pretty distasteful types.

So my question, Wynne, is not really whether you find the cartoons funny, but whether you think these sorts of issues should be discussed and the perpetrators challenged. If you DO, then surely you would agree that cartoons and satire are one of a number of effective ways to stimulate the discussion.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:50:44 GMT

You can't deny "Non" works.

Wynne

Re: Je suis Charlie!

J G Wray — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:48:58 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]My attitude to contraception is well known - it's the exact opposite of that of the Catholic church[/quote]

Ah, contraception and the Catholic church. There's an interesting chap called John Rock, a devout Catholic, who pioneered progesterone based control of menstrual cycles and ultimately contraception. He wrote a book The Time Has Come: A Catholic Doctor's Proposals to End the Battle over Birth Control. He held that oral, progesterone based i.e. naturally occurring substance based methods of birth control were entirely consistent with the philosophy of Catholic doctrine in this area. His efforts came to naught with the 1968 papal encyclical Humanae Vitae.....

My wife's favourite form of contraception has echoes of a belligerent Frenchman called De Gaulle - "Non!"

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 15:19:50 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I am pretty laid back about homosexuality (it has the virtue of not contributing to the population explosion) but I'll also defend the rights of certain religious/cultural groups to say that they think it's wrong,[/quote]This thread is about to descend into a lot of religious counter-bickering and get nasty again if we're not careful and don't concentrate on the OP.

Never one to not be hypocritical: sorry no-one has the right to be homophobic any more than they have to be racist, sexist, discriminate against disability or anything else over which someone has no choice. However religion bating is OK because it is a personal choice, it's foundation unproven and multi-denominational and everyone has the right to be critical about that.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:51:50 GMT

Arlo. My attitude to contraception is well known - it's the exact opposite of that of the Catholic church. Vatican doctrine is undoubtedly a huge contributory factor to the population explosion in South America, but the Catholic church certainly isn't the only guilty party. One of the countries with the highest rate of population increase is India - where most people are Hindu. The Catholic church is certainly not responsible for the social security driven population explosion amongst unmarried, unemployed mothers in this country. I therefore find your 1st cartoon unfunny - but I'll defend your right to print it.

2nd cartoon. Again I find paedophilia so evil that it's exceedingly non-funny, but I'll defend your right to print this cartoon, and also mine to say it's non-funny.

3rd cartoon. I am pretty laid back about homosexuality (it has the virtue of not contributing to the population explosion) but I'll also defend the rights of certain religious/cultural groups to say that they think it's wrong, even though I'll disagree with them - and your right to publish the cartoon.

What is always objectional is violence.

Hope I've made myself clear.

Wynne

(I've never been scared of a robust argument)

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:43:46 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]Was going to mention The Life of Brian as a satire about Jesus- then I remembered that he is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy.[/quote]Indeed and the film went to great lengths to be respectful almost to celebrating the birth of Jesus right from the very start so it would take a very narrow minded zealot to object.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Sammy82 — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:36:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

What we need is a new film called 'The Life Of Allah' starring John Cleese.

[/quote]

Was going to mention The Life of Brian as a satire about Jesus- then I remembered that he is not the Messiah, he is a very naughty boy. I think satire is part of free speech, and as long as it is clear that it is a joke nobody should be offended by it. Being a German living in Scotland though I do notice cultural differences in humour as mentioned by Dagmar. And these are noticeable differences between two western european, christian dominated countries. I could imagine that people from very different cultural backgrounds just don't get the joke, just as we probably wouldn't get it reading a syrian satire/comedy magazine.

(And Arlo, could you do something to the automatic spell checking to change it to British English please? I am easily confused by red lines)

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:18:40 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Of your three cartoons: the first is momentarily amusing, if stupid.

The second is a bit vicious, and probably quite justifiably so.

The third one I just don't understand at all (and it's very poorly drawn). Can anyone explain the joke, or what point is being made, because I'm baffled.

[/quote]They are all funny and make a very valid point about religious doctrine/hypocrisy. Quite honestly if you don't get the third then I'm afraid you live a very sheltered life or are in denial. Mind you it is more a satire of intolerance and prejudice rather than religion especially with what I assume is Vladimir Putin with a swastika on his chest.

PS Mr Putin's revenge is likely to be more subtle than a massacre - polonium in your tea or falling off a balcony in mysterious circumstances is more his style.

Re: Je suis Charlie!

Sarah Keir — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 14:18:05 GMT

I am Charlie and my wife is too.

Satire, and a lot of comedy, is a cultural thing. For example, some countries cannot understand irony.

(Life of Brian was banned in may countries for decades, and one council in Wales until a few years ago!).