Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

ChrisBVSc — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:15:48 GMT

Don't worry about the blood sample I occasionally 'abandon' if it's in the interests of the cat, i.e. persevering or wrapping it in a towel is likely to kill it, or if it's an evil sod & genuinely isn't safe for me or whoever holds it. Never had a problem explaining the reasons to the owner, and it's always a case of reaching a mutual decision on whether to give up completely if it's not essential to run the test (some owners decide this themselves!), keep the cat in & sedate later on (but not on a Sunday - why was it booked in then?!), or rebook to sedate or try again another day. It's worth considering whether perhaps there could have been a different or better way of discussing things with the owner (that's meant as a helpful comment), but I'm also aware the owner could just be an idiot!

Still, your boss should have supported you, not booked you a blood sample on a Sunday, & I don't understand how it can result in a longer probation, unless it's just a good excuse to cover some other reason (not necessarily to do with you!)

Maybe worth trying to discuss it all again & ask them directly, why have you extended my probation & how does the blood sample justify this? (non-confrontational obviously)

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:13:17 GMT

Arlo. Aren't you slightly confused about zoological classifications?

Cat and red herring.

Wynne

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Bob Russell — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:49:29 GMT

Is this an almighty misunderstanding? A lot of bosses are singularly poor at communication. Many vets are very sensitive to criticism!

We live in a world where we try to work miracles frequently without the tools and information to do the reliable calculations needed for precise diagnosis. This often results in insecurity and loss of confidence resulting in overreactions!

Talk to your boss, this will hopefully clarify the situation. At the same time have a think about whether you really want to continue to do 'routine' blood tests on a Sunday evening!!

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:34:46 GMT

Virginia. I can remember an almost identical (but worse) situation with Radnorshire sucklers. This one was a Welsh Black cow - the sort that would make a hawk look positively domesticated. I wanted to TB test it,and was chasing it all over the yard. For the information of everyone bar Virginia, Radnorshire is a terribly Selenium deficient area. Anyway, this cow just dropped dead! Not a nice thing to have happening.

Wynne

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 11:06:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I think some of this comes from a large animal vet attitude - it's you there on the farm and you fix it or kill it[/quote]

I remember one large animal situation where I damn near killed it. Castrating wild Radnorshire sucklers; near the end of the batch and the biggest and the best (and also hardest to hunt up the race) went down on the front end in the head gate. The farmer shouted what was happening - he wanted to release it. Well, I'd done one side, I wasn't going to stop now and I didn't fancy chasing it round the yard to catch it again. So I yelled, "hang on, nearly done", finished it, and the farmer opened the headgate, whereupon it fell out the front and lay there for about a minute. A few seconds longer and it would have hung itself, and it would have been my fault.

So with this cat that was trying to die, I would have also called it a day and had them back, in normal hours, and given it a touch of something before it got wound up.

Anyway - back to the OP. I agree with Arlo - ask for the meeting now and bring some notes as prompts. Try not to get dragged into a big discussion about the cat (as we have done) - as Arlo says, it's not about the cat - your boss may have perservered in the situation but you should have the freedom to make your own decision not to.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:44:47 GMT

Just as an impartial observer to this thread, the cat here is a red herring.

This is all about bad communication, and nothing else.

I can well imagine that at the time of the 3 month review, the OP might have been a) too taken aback to question the decision there and then, and b) not feeling confident enough to challenge things there and then.

I'm certainly no HR expert, but I would have thought a 3 month review should routinely be followed by a second meeting some days later when the employee has an opportunity to ask further questions / challenge what has been said (having had a few days to reflect).

If it were me, I'd ask for that meeting now. I'd scribble a few notes in advance as it is all too easy to forget something in the heat of the moment. I'd begin the meeting by explaining candidly that the decision to extend the probation as a result of this case seems unfair because ...

I'd then express the sentiments already outlined on this thread (ie. feeling unduly insecure about my position; feeling unsupported in my clinical decision-making; not sure if this is really about something else, such as practice not being able to afford me or a knee-jerk reaction to a complaint from an important client).

In other words, just be completely open.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:35:49 GMT

Sorry Micheal. I'm with AnOn on this. Having all the blood data on a dead cat is no earthly use to anyone.

AnOn If your employer was really wanting to get rid of you, then after onlt 3 months, you could simply have been given a P45 with no explanation necessary. I think it's more a case of being genuinely uncertain.

Wynne

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:44:44 GMT

My observations for what they're worth: Even after nearly 40 years I fail to take a blood sample on occasions so I don't think there's any issue there. I can only think that your boss is using this as an excuse for keeping his options open because he thinks that by extending your probation period it is easier to get rid of you, which as already suggested is not necessary up to 12 months.

There may be other issues, possibly financial, possibly he has some special relationship with this client and needed to make a show for them, maybe he's just unsure if he wants an assistant at all.

The over-riding thing to me though is why he would want a blood sample taken on a Sunday night. There is a practice local to us where they are so busy because its a stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap set-up that the principal is (allegedly) often working late at night. From his point of view the assistants and nurses are lazy because they don't want to work stupid hours, from their's he's a slave driver and they leave very quickly. Are there other examples of expectation to be working these hours?

I would be questioning whether I wanted to continue to work there. My suspicion is that despite things being all rosy to start this is the tip of the iceberg of how you are going to be dealt with in the future and would be keeping my options open to move on.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Anthony Todd — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:43:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Anthony - I can take feedback. What I can't accept is giving up being OK. [/quote]

Sure, nor me, but what I understood from your post was that you would persist there and then which I used to do with catastrophic [usually] results.

I think the key thing is to, shall I say, revise one's approach earlier, ie before the manure has hit the spreader, rather than a later stage in the developing dog or cat fight which one will lose.

This took a few total embarrassing incidents before I realised it.

Of course if you see them again which, under the "give in early" approach, may happen, then they can be slugged as hard as you dare.

True, with large animals, restraint is available and effective, but a dog-catcher and hysterical alsatian owners don't go too well together.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Braden Collins — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 04:19:15 GMT

Had a similar cat case a couple of weeks ago and had to do the same thing with sending it home unbled. This was showing signs of heart failure (at least managed some conscious chest rads but that was the limit. I think sometimes you do have to walk away.

When I was a new grad I was out preg testing station cattle (just think of moorland cattle which have even less human contact and will pretty consistently try to kill you) and when one wouldn't get headbaled I put a plank behind it and stepped in. A couple of months off largies work with a stuffed elbow taught me it really isn't worth continuing in every case. I think the same principle applied here. No point risking a dead cat or a bite into a joint for the sake of a cat.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 01:11:27 GMT

Anthony - I can take feedback. What I can't accept is giving up being OK. Keep the cat in and sedate tomorrow if you must. Stay late and let it settle before sedating. Don't just pass the buck to your boss or return an un-bled cat to the owner without a definite plan for how exactly you are going to get the sample.

We've had patients over the years like your GSD and we arrange ACP sandwich at home and in with a muzzle. Once you have found a suitable dose then you are left with a pussycat (that is not to be trusted).

I think some of this comes from a large animal vet attitude - it's you there on the farm and you fix it or kill it. You are it. Get yourself out of the situation because no-one is coming to help. When you've managed a caesarian on a 800kg wild sucker that genuinely wants to kill you, getting blood out of a 5kg cat (however angry) never seems so bad.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Anthony Todd — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 23:17:33 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I don't care HOW you get the blood sample, I do care that you DO get the blood sample.[/quote]

Yep,was my attitude, until a freaky alsatian which wouldn't let me near it ,just for a booster; dog catcher, anal glands everywhere, owner in tears.

I realised after that how wrong "a procedure at any cost is" and, from then on, I admitted defeat at an early stage.....

I don't know how many clients I lost because of that wrong attitude!

PS No red stars, just a criticism from me Michael

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 22:46:57 GMT

+1 Ashley

All I was saying in my post was that the boss had privately expressed concern about how a situation was handled, which they are entitled to do, and that the OP shouldnt react too hastily. I didn't discuss the details of the case because none of us know enough about it. Maybe the OP was correct to stop and continuing would have killed it. Maybe they could have done things differently. Maybe the boss does get blood out of this cat on a regular basis. Maybe the OP got tired and stressed and was rude or dismissive to the client. Who knows.

Anyway, the OP is asking for advice...and mine would be to allow a couple of days to calm down and then if the situation is still bothering them just talk to the boss. Obviously the OP is free to ignore me though!

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Ashley Rubens — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:46:21 GMT

From what you've said your boss was mostly positive then brought up the blood sample at the end? Sounds more like she's just not handled the blood sample issue very well, extending your probation as some sort of punishment, rather than she's trying to get rid of you as if that were the case why keep you on now? Why be complimentary about everything else?! Just another example of a vet being a bad manager! I would just ask them. If they aren't then they will tell you, and maybe realise they've not handled the situation very well and that you're worried, and that the job is important to you. If they are what's the worse? They fire you, or you leave anyway (so no different, just with some forewarning!)

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:23:31 GMT

As the OP made clear: in this case there was time pressure: The practice is in a warehouse that closes at a certain time and this cat had been inconveniently booked as last on a Sunday evening.

An animal's welfare goes above all, patience and calm is always the best in these situations, and it is not bad for an owner to get to understand that we vets can not always provide "instant gratification". We'll have to wait for the best opportunity, situation, for the animal to calm down, for the EMLA to work, etc. There is nothing wrong in making sure that we are both safe and nice to the pet, and certainly not making it into a "losing face" sort of situation.

If you work with a nervous horse, do you insist on getting something done? Or do you go with the flow and the animal?

But for the OP: it is maybe a good thing to see where your boss's loyalties are. Now you know that between you and the clients, The clients come first. Maybe your boss is under stress for her practice to perform, If you understand why she took the position she took with you, you may decide that you can accept it and try to live up to it. You may also decide that you don't want to work with somebody who will not support you if anything else comes up. And in that case you may want to start looking out for something else. The job market is not bad for vets with experience. If you feel confident you can go somewhere else, then talk with your boss and try to find out what this was all about, really. Sometimes the chat ends up in a surprise!

Mariette

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

katja wagner — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:18:36 GMT

I would have done the same as anon vet and stopped once it was clear that any further attempt would push this cat over the edge.

Michael's approach is in my opinion very dangerous ,you might have a blood sample at the end but possible at the cost of a dead cat and a justified angry client with the potential of a complaint to the RCVS.

katja

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

vetbl.locum — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:10:13 GMT

+1 for Linda

-10 for Michael

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:05:15 GMT

I'm not suggesting sitting on the cat whilst it goes blue. I am saying that the job is to get a blood sample - you do whatever is necessary to achieve that. Personally I like alpha 2's as they can be reversed and the cat can be sedated, bled and awake to go home inside 20 minutes - the owner can wait.Give the cat 15 mins to calm down, whatever is needed. You can do this in a very welfare friendly way, but still achieve your goal.

I don't care HOW you get the blood sample, I do care that you DO get the blood sample.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Linda Filshie — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:05:02 GMT

Excuse the tetchy nature of my post above - I blame my ragingly painful tonsillitis and now I can't edit it!

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Linda Filshie — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:59:00 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Simply, you can let someone go with no consequence inside a year for no reason whatsoever. No particular reason to extend a probation period.

Re- bleeding the cat, I can see it from both sides. I would expect any veterinary surgeon to be able to extract blood from a cat. If not possible with simple holding then wrap in a towel, cat muzzle, cat bag. If cat getting super-stressed then give it some Domitor. I'd be frustrated if this wasn't done, even if it meant keeping the cat in if it had eaten or was badly stressed. Small practices then you have to see things through, passing them on is not on in the long term. 'Giving up' is not something I do and can reflect badly on the practice.

[/quote]

I would probably want to sack someone who didn't have the welfare of the patient in mind and who refused to "give up" when the animal tried to expire not once but twice! What about "first do no harm"? And I wouldn't be too keen on reaching for an alpha2 with a patient with probable cardio-respiratory compromise - midaz/ket is much safer. It's much worse for business if a client starts screeching. To all and sundry how you killed darling Fluffy when "he only went in for a blood sample."

Sheesh, I can't believe I'm actually having to write this down.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:36:36 GMT

Simply, you can let someone go with no consequence inside a year for no reason whatsoever. No particular reason to extend a probation period.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Cat Henstridge — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 18:23:57 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I suspect you're looking too deeply at this. The boss has told you that you're doing well, but they have some concern about your decision that night. Sounds reasonable to me..... They are, after all, your boss and is perfectly entitled to discuss their concerns with you. It sounds like they did so in the correct manner. You may feel your boss is wrong but, to be honest, you're bound to!!![/quote]

With the greatest of respect Gillian, I think you are being a little harsh here.

From what Anon describes (and I know we only have one side of the story here but I would have done exactly the same) they acted in the correct way. I can understand a clients annoyance (it probably wasn't that easy getting the cat in the basket and to the clinic if it acts like that for bloods!) but this decision should have been supported by the boss. In a new clinic there is a huge temptation to acquiesce to a clients every whim in order to gain their business but it shouldn't be at the expense of supporting your employees!

In a two man clinic you have to be able to rely and trust each other implicitly for it to work, you are basically two sides of the same coin. This incident would certainly make me wary of the boss, especially following a positive review and I too would be suspicious there were other, underlying, reasons for the extension of the probationary period.

Anon, you have my support!

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:33:22 GMT

Book the blood sample back for your boss - and ask to observe. shouldn't be tricky as it is unlikely this client will go out of her way to see you again, and believe me this is no loss to you.

I usually admit difficult cats for the morning at least, so they have time to settle, and usually get permission for midazolam/ketamine sedation as well. Given that this cat was going blue, it suggests a cardiac issue at the very least, and certainly justified stopping the attempt. clearly the owner didn't comprehend your explanation, or puts her own convenience ahead of the animal's welfare -had a few of those kind of people in the past, and they aren't worth losing sleep over.

Bottom line if you are upset, ask to discuss the issue with your boss. Probation works both ways in that you too can leave with minimal notice, and leaving a job after a few months doesn't look bad on a CV so long as it isn't happening all the time - if anyone queries it just say things didn't turn out the way you were expecting, and the job wasn't what you were looking for, so it was better to move on sooner than later. Unless you are planning to spend the rest of your working life with this practice it's hardly a career breaker.

Even when your probation is over, you still have few rights as an employee until a year is up, so I doubt your boss is extending probation to make it easier to sack you.

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

Jscvet — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:20:05 GMT

I feel for you anon- and am also another who thinks extending your probationary period based on this one failed attempt to get a blood sample from a very fractious cat (which I would have thought had happened to everyone?) is unfair. From what you've said, I think you chose the best option, ie, let the cat be and try again another day when there's more time for emla cream to be applied or whatever. When a colleague/ boss doesn't support or have your back on such things to clients it makes it a very hard position to be in and I can understand you feeling unhappy about it. Your clinical reasoning seems sound to me and in the face of an unhappy client, a few supportive words from your boss to said client, outlining your reasoning behind your decision to try again another day would've been helpful and you probably would've felt happier about the situation. Maybe ask to have a chat about it with your boss and ask for a better explanation of why your probation has been extended based on this and what they would've done differently in your situation with this cat- that will be interesting to hear, if nothing else! Best wishes :)

Re: Dubious that my employer is trying to dismiss me unfairly.

David Mills — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:42:21 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] suspect you're looking too deeply at this. The boss has told you that you're doing well, but they have some concern about your decision that night. Sounds reasonable to me..... [/quote]

Disagree completely. This is a shitty thing to do, for the sake of a blood sample with a Persian cat owner who sounds like an idiot - as the OP intimates, I suspect there is something else underlying this, likely financial as it is eminently easier to let someone go during the probationary period, esp if the practice is not doing too well on that front. Personally, I would speak to the boss again and outline your concerns. And yes, let them try and get the blood sample next time.