What is the role for women in the profession?

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

bevs2251 — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 01:02:36 GMT

I am An Australian veterinarian who graduated in 1985. Just under 50% women vets in those days, very few female practice owners. I've worked in UK, for employers, had my own practice (by myself) for 7 years, locum work, & now back to employee (for male vet 18 years younger !!). I've seen & experienced whole gamut. As I had my own practice working 6 days a week in my 30s, there was no time for having babies. I think it is impossible to own your own practice, have children & be able to be good at both or devote quality time to each facet. Something has to give. Luckily, I was not very maternal & did not want to have children anyway. However, it was still very stressful runnning a business (thrown into deep end after nasty partnership split), finding some time with my partner, housework, ongoing CPD, finding a decent locum to be able to have a couple of weeks off etc etc etc.

Now > 80% female vets graduating in Oz. Corporates also taking over here but not price-gouging (they actually seem to charge a lot more than independent vets). Many graduates here now of Asian backgound with funding from parents - not interested in owning a practice & not that concerned re poor pay etc.

Vets 3rd lowest paid profession in Oz. Males not overly interested in working long hours for a pittance (GPs earn about 10x/hour more than vets !!).

Different attitudes today, Gen X & Y not so keen to take on a veterinary business with all the added burdens that entails. Now, they also have HECS debt to pay off so employed work at least gives guaranteed income. I went to Uni when it was free ! Otherwise, I couldn't have afforded to do the degree.

Same in USA, same in Canada. World-wide problem.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 17:55:05 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I'd say definitely yes.[/quote]

EHHHH, anecdotal; you know how modvets dismiss anything that isn't evidence based even if it is obvious to the meanest intelligence.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 17:46:32 GMT

If maternity leave is included, I'd say definitely yes.

Wynne

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 17:38:50 GMT

[quote user="listhestar"]I have been looked over jobs before because I was female (and friends have been too). You will never prove it because people are too clever. I'm of child bearing age and married. [/quote]

Again Evidence Based Data...

Do female vets have more time off? than male vets?

Add in: I'm of child bearing age and married.

Do they or don't they?

Sweep prejudice aside and anecdotes aside; there must be some data somewhere

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

listhestar — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 16:20:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Why are women under-represented at principal/director/partner level? Is there something innately different about men and women which means that women are less interested in or suited to the riskier role of running a business? Is childbirth the problem? Are there some other factors at play which prevent women reaching business leadership positions?[/quote]

Because we are women. I heard my boss say the other day he would like nothing more than '2 nice men to take over the practice'. I have been there 7 years. I can not commit to remain long term as care for my father will have be a priority. I was foolishly too honest about my dads ill health and I will never know if I would have been considered for partnership.

I have been looked over jobs before because I was female (and friends have been too). You will never prove it because people are too clever. I'm of child bearing age and married. I even joked the other day that working hard to get my certificate was to make up for a lack of anatomy and a number of male colleagues sadly agreed this is true.

But I have too much else in my life to start a crusade on the discrimination still around. No don't some people will shout me down for the above, but that is life *retreats into hard outer shell*

Lisa

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:21:03 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Is the issue just 'a women thing' or is it partially 'a generational thing'. I remember forever being told that 'Generation Y' are looking for a better work-life balance[/quote]

This is THE fundamental change over the last. er, 50 years. ALL of my fellow undergraduates, with the exception of the lone female, desperatetly wanted to be vets and do "vetting" full time, forever, and I was one of them.

None of them wanted to do anything else, ever! And so they were, mainly practising vets until they became dinovets.....

This has all changed., many more female vets, male vets going from practice to acting or whatever.

It's a fact of life, whereas back in the day "life/work balance" was the time left over when you'd done the last call...

Back in the day I doubt if ANY male vet [and there were hardly any females in practice] had ever bathed any of their children, ever!

Was it better; we thought it was normal....!

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 14:56:28 GMT

Is the issue just 'a women thing' or is it partially 'a generational thing'. I remember forever being told that 'Generation Y' are looking for a better work-life balance, are less likely to stay in one job/ position for a long time but be more willing to move sideways or even into different professions completely. Perhaps the idea of working in a practice, and then buying into that practice as a partner doesn't really appeal to my generation (making a sweeping generalisation of course). I know it's certainly not a route that has ever particularly interested me (sorry Niall, if you are reading this!). Starting your own practice offers more freedom, perhaps, but less security. At the end of the day it is small business ownership, and that's not for everyone.

It might be interesting to know what age the principals/ directors/ partners generally are, or the average age of small business owners generally.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 12:58:48 GMT

Hey, no need to jump on Chris just because he wanted to know more! It's a fair question, even though I think that Braden's very lucky if he can make money on 4x of employee salary! :)

Chris, if you want to PM me I'm happy to go into a little more detail about this.

Cheers,
Mark

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

ChrisBVSc — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 12:15:42 GMT

I'm well aware of what VAT is, but having never employed people & having to investigate/work this stuff out for myself as an interested employee, I just wanted to clarify what you all meant by "turnover should be 4x salary" or whatever & it wasn't immediate clear - because obviously there's a big difference depending on gross or net turnover!

Anyway, I will leave you all to continue on the original topic..

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 08:28:28 GMT

I know (only too well) but Chris didn't seem to.

Wynne

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:34:58 GMT

[quote user="ChrisBVSc"]are we talking 4-5x salary (gross) to give net or gross turnover? (i.e. with or without the vat)[/quote]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] ie, the total money left to pay the veterinary surgeon is only 17% of turnover after VAT has been deducted. [/quote]

VAT is not part of turnover nor of gross profit and should never be considered as such.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:02:55 GMT

The rule of thumb i heard was 5 to 5.5x multiple of salary, and after a load of excel crunching I've found it was a pretty good estimate!

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 18:51:52 GMT

According to SPVS, in the average veternary practice the adjusted net profit, ie, the total money left to pay the veterinary surgeon is only 17% of turnover after VAT has been deducted. That's the total amount, you have to add on employers NI and fringe benefits to headline salary, so I'd say 4 x income was uneconomical for the practice.

Wynne

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

ChrisBVSc — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 17:39:57 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]

[quote user="J G Wray"] We expect you to turn over five times your salary. If you turn over six come and talk about a pay rise. If you turn over four [/quote]

We wexpect our staff to turn over 4 x their income.

[/quote]

Sorry, quick thread hijack for a beginners question - are we talking 4-5x salary (gross) to give net or gross turnover? (i.e. with or without the vat)

Thanks!

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 10:28:20 GMT

One of the vet mags has asked me to write an article on the challenges and issues facing women in our profession and I would love to hear from anyone who has an opinion or can share a story on how you make it work!

Feel free to send me a private message if you don't want to post on this thread.

Many Thanks,

Cat

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 17:15:52 GMT

[quote user="Liz white"]Out of interest, if you employed someone who got a place on the rcvs council, would you expect them to use holidays to cover the work/trips to London, would it be unpaid leave or would you pay them in full?

[/quote]

Good question, and thread worthy in its own right.

I'd be happy with unpaid leave for RCVS. If there was a more obvious benefit to the practice (perhaps BCVA or SVS) then I would pay them.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:58:00 GMT

In today's Guardian: Almost one in five parents do complementary or part time day/night shifts or are planning to do so, in order to save on cost of child care in the UK. One working the day, the other the evening or the night.

So it is definitely not uniquely a vet problem!

Mariette

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:23:30 GMT

Since RCVS will pay Councillors a daily allowance,then their employers wouldn't need to apy them.

Wynne

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Liz w — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:07:20 GMT

Out of interest, if you employed someone who got a place on the rcvs council, would you expect them to use holidays to cover the work/trips to London, would it be unpaid leave or would you pay them in full?

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 16:58:16 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

I think the main problem identified and discussed here is the problem for women/parents with quite young children. I personally think the problem is mainly when kids are school age and too young to have dinner later at night. And that is only for a limited time in the parent's life. With younger children and teenagers what is the problem adopting a more mediterranean dinner time of 9.00?

But I thought the main question of the thread was where women are in the higher up positions in our profession, in the better paid positions, and in vet politics?

Mariette

[/quote]

Well we have to get up at six to get them to school in time. Even for mine (nearly 11 and 15) 10:00 bed time would be way too late. (8:00 and 9:00 it is apart from weekends)

Women who have to or want to cut their working hours short simply fall off the train, that's why they don't end up in higher up positions! If you only work part time it's unlikely you'll be offered a partnership, running your own business part time also means making compromises and politics take up a lot of time as well.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 13:24:35 GMT

Alternatively, the obvious solution is to find vets with no family problems working later (and maybe preferring to start later in the day) to do the night shifts, like in all the other professions which work the evening ours. it is not uniquely our problem really!

But I thought the main question of the thread was where women are in the higher up positions in our profession, in the better paid positions, and in vet politics?

Mariette

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:03:38 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"] in the evenings 6-9 a couple of days a week.[/quote]

What some vets did, including myself is, when a further consult etc. was needed, was to go out to reception and say slowly and carefully "Can we make another appointment for XXX night [when I would be there] and the client and receptionist [....!] would realise that I, and the client, wanted to see the same vet again.

Often not done, and so with dedicated clients : ["Oh, I saw a much younger vet on Monday?"] when I was there instead....

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

J G Wray — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:59:36 GMT

[quote user="Cat Henstridge"]Maybe one of the reasons women aren't posting is... [/quote]

My post shows women are involved in this thread, there are more female contributors than males or male-ish and more postings from women. Ms Mostyn's analysis is more perception than evidence.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Cat Henstridge — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 10:43:53 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"][quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] It is no coincidence that a thread asking why women aren't reaching their potential in this profession is being dominated by men.[/quote][/quote]

Maybe one of the reasons women aren't posting is because they can't see a solution to the problem of being a parent (which is what this thread is boiling down to and really the big issue here) and being a vet. There will always be lates/earlys/weekends and possible OOH to cover and with a family this can be difficult, if not impossible.

Gillian is right that practices could think more flexibly when employing parents and offering different shifts but this is only really going to work in larger clinics that have the capacity. I have for several years locummed as cover for one vet clinics and (obviously) they want a full days cover. I have been lucky enough to have childcare which will accommodate this (husband also a vet) but that is fairly unique. I am moving areas soon and have already been in touch with a practice that may want cover in the evenings 6-9 a couple of days a week. This I could probably manage with family support, and could be an option in many practices, they would just have to be multi-vet.

The bottom line in such a disparate profession there is no big solution and each parent vet (man or women) has to try to figure for themselves a solution to continue to work, and many can't. It is a huge problem and, I think, massively damaging but I don't think things will ever really change.

Re: What is the role for women in the profession?

Liz w — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 09:09:11 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

In view of the numbers entering the profession, is the thread mis-titled? What is the role for men in the profession?

[/quote] Lifting heavy bodies?