Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 13:37:18 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] "discrimination" on religious grounds is just as illegal as "discrimination" on grounds of sexual preference and that I do not think that "homosexual rights" should automatically trump "religious rights".[/quote]Sorry to keep this going but having read this again I couldn't let it go.

Whatever the law says let's put things in perspective. Religious discrimination is almost exclusively by one religion against another or even against non-believers rather than the other way round. It is the choice of an individual (albeit this may be somewhat affected by overwhelming outside influence), based on virtually groundless supernatural beliefs and very sketchy historical reference. One could argue that the pious bring it upon themselves. Being born female, black, homosexual or handicapped is not a choice.

Therefore by logic, religious discrimination should be trumped by the others. In law it is not and that is the way it should be but I am just making a point.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 09:24:45 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]But if they would accept a person on their own they should not judge who shares a bed with whom, unless illegal of course.[/quote]Well homosexuality was effectively illegal in our very recent past. In that case you are saying that if Alan Turing* had wanted to stay with his boyfriend in a B&B because it was technically illegal it was morally OK for the owners to refuse him room at the inn? Yet another case of laws being for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

*Sadly homosexuality laws and prejudice robbed us of one our brightest minds and who possibly more than any other single person save us from the Nazi's who if you ever want an example of how prejudice can go to extremes give you one.

There I've invoked Godwin's Law so Merry Christmas to all, over and out.

PS Evelyn you did not phrase the offending post well so you cannot blame anyone for making an inference, however I do apologise if I made an unfair and incorrect accusation.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Sammy82 — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:48:37 GMT

I would be offended if they did not allow me to share a double bed with my boyfriend because we aren't married. Not their business, no matter if he was black, white, green, double my age or a girlfriend. I don't think they have to accept anyone, e.g. I think it is fair enough to refuse to accomodate a crackhead, severly drunk or abusive person. But if they would accept a person on their own they should not judge who shares a bed with whom, unless illegal of course.

@ Anon, no need to hide, I totally agree!

BTW, interesting to see how far off topic this thread has veered!

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

An On MRCVS — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:21:48 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]"discrimination" on religious grounds is just as illegal as "discrimination" on grounds of sexual preference and that I do not think that "homosexual rights" should automatically trump "religious rights".[/quote]

Some one's religious right is to not have a homosexual relationship themselves - not to stop others from having one.

Therefore in the same way that religious people can expect to be allowed to pray in the privacy of their B and B room, so should gay people be allowed to do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their own room, as long as it is not disturbing others.

I don't see it as a right of religious people to police other's behaviour!

Surely it's between them and God.

The most important commandment after loving God is to love thy neighbour. Judging and policing other's behaviour is not mentioned anywhere near the top. So these so-called Christian B and B owners are misguided at best, or using their religion as an excuse for prejudice.

Otherwise, logically, they should be banning the rich from staying there - after all it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle etc!

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:48:20 GMT

Hi Evelyn,

I don't want to wreck your Christmas at all, and I am not offended, just baffled completely that people should be allowed to run a hospitality business and have the right for religious reasons to take measures preventing me sleeping with my legal partner. In this age in this country! Fortunately these rights no longer exist. Unfortunately the developments in other countries show where bigotry about minorities (in this case gay) people can lead to.

Back to Pope Francis, he has at least shown a more realistic and human attitude, AND he has mediated between Obama and Castro. Three cheers for that!

Happy Xmas

Mariette

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 19:58:55 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

"I see no reason why people who run a b&b in their own home should be compelled to allow two blokes to share a double bed if they don't want to;" Evelyn Barbour-Hill

Just replace the words "two blokes" with "two jews", "two blacks, "two Irishmen" or similar and the outrageousness of this statement in the 21st century becomes clear.

Mariette

[/quote]

Chuffin' 'ell. I had promised not to come back on this thread but I just can't let this go by.

You could "demonstrate" anything with this "just replace" ploy.

The blokes were not refused a double bed because they were homosexuals. They were refused a double bed because to give a double bed to two blokes (their sexual preferences not actually inquired into) was seen by the proprietors as in principle condoning homosexual acts which in their belief was immoral. They could have had twin beds if any were available, they could have accepted the offer of finding them a different b&b.

Suppose Leslie Phillips had turned up with Pixie Lott, most definitely not married. The proprietors could have refused them a double bed (as landladies used to do) and got into no trouble at all for it.

I think the proprietors handled it wrongly. I don't even share their views. But what I was trying to say, and in the context I didn't think I had to spell it out, is that "discrimination" on religious grounds is just as illegal as "discrimination" on grounds of sexual preference and that I do not think that "homosexual rights" should automatically trump "religious rights".

All I got in return was a foul accusation, and the thread shot off at a wild unjustified tangent.

Well, I give my sincere apologies to anyone I have truly offended.

If Martin has any decency he will apologise to me now.

I really am leaving this thread now, as I don't wish to wreck my Christmas or that of anyone else, so I will not be checking.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 19:27:02 GMT

"I see no reason why people who run a b&b in their own home should be compelled to allow two blokes to share a double bed if they don't want to;" Evelyn Barbour-Hill

Just replace the words "two blokes" with "two jews", "two blacks, "two Irishmen" or similar and the outrageousness of this statement in the 21st century becomes clear.

Mariette

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:53:13 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

There's 2 reasons why 2 people will want to share a hotel room, sexual and economic. If the latter,they would probably prefer twin beds.

Wynne

[/quote]

You forget companionship/friendship.

A lot of relationships succeed perfectly well without sex. Not that it is anyone else's business anyway, obviously.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:37:45 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I would like to say that one of the most welcoming and friendly people to me on my partner's side of the family is her uncle who is a priest.[/quote]My wife (who is catholic) was head of a C of E school. I recall an occasion a couple of years ago when the priest/vicar (whatever his title) of the parish the school was in wanted to entertain some visiting nuns and a couple of monks so we offered to entertain them at our home with dinner. Also in attendance was an Anglican Bishop and a Chinese Buddhist. It was a most enlightening and entertaining event, no-one preached or judged anyone else and we all got on famously.

I'm not sure what this says but you can make your own observations.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:24:43 GMT

I'll have to slap myself on the wrist. I've been guilty of replying to the previous poster, not sticking to the original topic.

Wynne

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:24:26 GMT

I'll have to slap myself on the wrist. I've been guilty of replying to the previous poster, not sticking to the original topic.

Wynne

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 13:54:39 GMT

There's 2 reasons why 2 people will want to share a hotel room, sexual and economic. If the latter,they would probably prefer twin beds.

Wynne

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Bibs — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:37:10 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]If I was turned away from a B&B I'd be totally mortified and my confidence would be knocked. [/quote]I would hope that you wouldn't let it get to you Elizabeth. It should galvanize you and make you more determined to beat pathetic, small minded, prejudiced, indoctrinated idiots who can't think for themselves. They are the ones I would turn away.

I frequently go on cycling weekends with my friend and I make a point of telling the B&B people I want twin beds but that is because he snores (I had to share a bed once with him and even though I put ear pugs in so I couldn't hear him, the snoring was so bad it vibrated the bed). I sometimes wonder what people think of us in the pub/restaurant together but if someone made some homophobic comment I would deliberately act gay just to wind them up.

[/quote]

I suppose ideally I shouldn't let it get to me if it ever happens but I know it really would. It'd be upset and demoralised I'm sure. I'm a sensitive type unfortunately.

The only problem we ever have is being asked if we're SURE we don't want twin beds. That's embarrassing but fair enough I suppose.

Anyway on balance regarding religion I would like to say that one of the most welcoming and friendly people to me on my partner's side of the family is her uncle who is a priest. I've yet to have an in depth discussion with him about our views on life but maybe one day.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:57:01 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]How do you 'act gay'?[/quote]I leave that to your imagination!

[quote user="Bob Russell"]If you rent out rooms to perfect strangers why would it be any of your business what goes on behind closed doors [/quote]Exactly the point.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:37:42 GMT

How do you 'act gay'?

If you rent out rooms to perfect strangers why would it be any of your business what goes on behind closed doors unless they were making too much noise or there is damage to the chandelier?

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:34:08 GMT

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:31:21 GMT

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:28:05 GMT

This thread seems to have drifted a very long way from my original posting, which was that if Pope Francis had said that animals would go to heaven, then hopefully that belief would improve the treatment of animals in predominantly Catholic countries.

Wynne

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Bibs — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 10:00:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Please tell me I have misinterpreted your post![/quote]

You have misinterpreted my post.

I presume.

I don't really know what you are on about.

[/quote]I would have allowed Gillian to have the last word and retired for Christmas but for the fact that you seem to have your head in the sand over this. Please tell me how this statement is not homophobic:

'I see no reason why people who run a b&b in their own home should be compelled to allow two blokes to share a double bed if they don't want to; the couple you are referring to did not enquire of the blokes "are you homosexuals?" and they would have given them a twin-bed room if one had been available; they also offered to find the blokes another b&b'.

[/quote] Its the same as saying it's ok for B&B owners to turn away people of a certain race if they want to in my view. Luckily I have never had a problem booking double accommodation with my (female) partner of 6 years. If I was turned away from a B&B I'd be totally mortified and my confidence would be knocked. If people still think that some possible misinterpretation of a religion is more important then it's something people like me just have to live with but it's one of the things that just doesn't seem right about religion spilling into affecting how non relgious people have to live their lives. Anyway Merry Christmas.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:22:12 GMT

I'll second Gillian Merry Christmas

Wynne

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:05:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Please tell me I have misinterpreted your post![/quote]

You have misinterpreted my post.

I presume.

I don't really know what you are on about.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:13:13 GMT

Give someone else the last word? Nah.

Merry Christmas!

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:55:43 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"] I'm sure that a millennium or two an enthusiastic slash with a specialised knife may have been the best option but the world has moved on.[/quote]

Quite so.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"] ethics and morals[/quote]

And our (not a typo) ethics and morals come from.... our culture..... which comes from.....? Are you sure there's something absolute? If so, that's approaching a religion, ain't it? And even our science – there's a lot more philosophy in that than people realise. sometimes.

Anyway. This thread has become exhausted and vituperative, and none of the posters at all is likely to alter their respective opinion one jot, as far as I can see.

So somebody else can have the last word, by all means. Personally, Christmas (whatever you conceive it to be) is generally reckoned to be a season of goodwill, so I will make my little contribution to that principle by shutting up. I dare you all to do the same.

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Niall Taylor — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:23:12 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]No, the "not" was not a typo.

It's not like you, Niall, to not read a post carefully.

Having read it, you them have to think a bit instead of keeping your atheist blinkers on.[/quote]

On re-reading I see the "not" belongs where it was, though I don't believe it has changed the sense of my reply[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

The problem was punctuation though, not athiest blinkers.

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]According to the techno-deity google, the quote is from a text roughly 2,000 years old where a promising young rabbi was speaking out against the strictures of Holy Rabbinic law, [/quote]

Yeah. Great, innit?

[/quote].

It is great; as are the Iliad and Odyssey. But they are no basis for a system of government, laws or morals.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]You and I both think the law is wrong and ought to be changed, because of our beliefs. No?[/quote]

And if I felt strongly enough to try to change the situation I would argue on the basis of the science, ethics and morals, not that my diety of choice will be angry unless I add to the suffering of animals destined for human consumption. I'm sure that a millennium or two an enthusiastic slash with a specialised knife may have been the best option but the world has moved on.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm torn between two replies: take your pick:

1. It all depends on what you mean by "special pleading"

2. OK, it's "special pleading". So?[/quote]

Sorry if I'm not being clear. I simply feel that religion as an institution, or a person holding a set of religious beliefs, shouldn't be entitled to special treatment or be allowed to act outside the law.

Niall

Re: Three Cheers for Pope Francis

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 20:59:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Please tell me I have misinterpreted your post![/quote]

You have misinterpreted my post.

I presume.

I don't really know what you are on about.