Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

David Mills — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 00:27:03 GMT

Just to the OP if you need anymore advice then feel free to contact me off list, or email me- dtm266@gmail.com Most of all, good luck!

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

David Mills — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:23:29 GMT

For a useful summary, see:

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/giving-evidence-for-court/

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

David Mills — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:17:31 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]The RSPCA may well try to get you on their side, as it were (I'm sorry David, it may not be universal but it's true in my experience). You should resist this, not gleefully enter into this cosy conspiracy.[/quote]

Yes, quite so. It is something they will do (still do), and it can be flattering. The OP (and anyone else) should be clear about what role they are assuming.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]To be frank, I think that Mr. Mills' excellent post is misleading in parts. A vet requested to appear as a witness may well be asked to go through their evidence in advance with the prosecuting lawyer, but it is not their business to examine defence submissions and pick holes in them; unless they have also been engaged as an adviser or consultant for that purpose (which perhaps Mr. Mills generally is).[/quote]

Apologies to the OP if I was misleading - re-reading what I wrote, some of it isn't as clear as it should be.

To clarify. You will either be a witness of fact or expert witness. For either, your primary responsibility is to the court, to provide evidence to assist them in making a decision based on the law (and case law) - this generally is about distilling the clinical and technical facts of the case into layman's terms to allow the magistrates (assuming this is the court you are attending) to consider the evidence. Although you may be paid for and instructed to attend by the prosecution (or the defence), you're responsibility, as EBH points out is not to secure a 'win' for one side or the other (indeed should you avow, for instance, on a public forum like this your illogical and prejudiced view of the defendant and their team, you could be ripped apart), and you are attending as an independent witness. As EBH points out, the prosecution may wish for you to be part of their 'team' - but you should delineate this from your role as a witness (e.g. they may wish to have you look at the defence team's expert report to assist in their cross-examination).

Just to clear up different witness types. There are only two: a witness of fact and an expert witness. A witness of fact can also be a professional witness, as defined by his/her belonging to a profession (An expert witness will always be a professional witness), but the term 'professional witness' is not a separate type of witness (if that makes sense). Now, as before witnesses of fact are not supposed to give opinion, whereas expert witnesses are. However, being a professional witness of fact, there is a grey area in clinical witnesses in that opinions are often present within clinical scenarios. Moreover, the court (not the lawyers) may ask you to give an opinion on the clinical areas based on your professional experience. For example, you may no have been able to reach a final diagnosis, or you may be estimating how long the animal was without food. You can and should clarify with them that they want you to give an opinion - as ruths says, referencing experience of similar cases is a good way of backing up what you say. Having said this, is a lawyer asks for an opinion always check with the magistrates that they want you to answer that.

Regarding expert witnesses, again the definition of expert is wide - vets often think it is synonymous with expert as is diploma holders, but it isn't - it's expertise relative to the layman (and your 'average' vet) - e.g. you could see a high number of cruelty cases and therefore be expert in these cases. Although further qualifications can help, they are by no means essential. I've no idea of your experience or expertise, but you shouldn't be afraid to be an expert witness. However, as an expert you will be grilled more, and be expected to give definitive opinion (usually in whether, by how much, and how unnecessarily the animal suffered) which you should expect to be challenged - this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as strong expert witness evidence carries great weight in court (and makes the magistrates decision much easier).

You should be clear which one you are going to be, and indeed the written evidence you submit will need to be different according to your role. As said the RSPCA will want you to be an expert witness, but only do this if you are.

Lastly, we can all tell embellished war stories of our days in court. They are not helpful. Don't tell jokes - the mags have heard them all before and they are tiresome; trying to be a smart arse weakens your evidence. You are not there to combat the defence, but your evidence is there for the court. All the tripe about acting, looking down your nose at people is just that - an air of arrogant superiority will just make you seem an odious d**k. The defence may well have an unwinnable case but everyone has the right, thankfully, to a defence in this country, and in theses cases it will be about mitigation and sentence reduction. Animal welfare law is not strict liability offence like speeding, and therefore a defence is to be embraced and welcomed. As Mr Ness says, often the guilty are pitifully unable to even look after themselves, and most cases I've been involved in are neglect rather than active cruelty. To re-iterate, enjoy the experience - if you have the luck to see a skilled solicitor at work, their performance in deconstructing testimony can be exquisitely majestic.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:30:33 GMT

Mark If I'd become a lawyer, I think I'd have to work purely for the Crown Prosecution Service, because I'd be suicidal with guilt if I ever thought I might have contributed to a criminal escaping punishment - and that's my last word on this thread, so you can all stop baitin me to reply.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:17:37 GMT

Evelyn I'm in total agreement with you that Adrienne is likely to be called as a professional witness. That is why she will have to wait outside, and not be admitted tocourt until it's time for her to give evidence,and why it will be permissable for her to expand her evidence if she thinks the prosecuting lawyer has forgotten something. She is part of the prosecution team. I stated at the very begining that she should stick strictly to the truth, and should not mention anything she can't proove bryond reasonable doubt. I hope you also agree with that!

You don't have to tell me the difference between professionaland expert witness. I'm already perfectly clear. If I was an expert witness, I WOULD EXPECT TO BE SEATED IN COURT FOR THE ENTIRE HEARING, AND WOULD BE THERE PURELY IN AN ADVISORY CAPACITY. I hope I've made myself absolutely clear.

Others have agreed that Adrienne can expect a hard time from the defence team. I'm trying to give her some tips which I've found work to counteract that - things like speaking sufficiently loudly that the defence can't ask her torepeat herself, even though they've actually heard 1st time.

As for magistrates not being impressed by my (literally) looking down my nose at the defence team - well my record speaks for itself!

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

ruths — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:58:46 GMT

The times that I've been to court when I've reported the defendant myself were the worst because I felt it mattered for me to make sure the time was t wasted. The first time I went, I was quite recently qualified so it was a bit stressful but later I've just gone in and given my account of what happened. When asked my opinion, I might say, having seen a number of these cases, I think that ... I e never treated anyone with contempt- I rise above that sort of thing. The best time was when the magistrate asked why dogs had their tails docked. It was a great experience to explain tail docking in pet dogs ( the owner had chopped the Dog's tail off )

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

robin scott — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 18:08:08 GMT

Exactly - do not throw stones On a lighter note:- I always cr-pped myself when appearing before the beak. We - ie the SSPCA and I had a cast iron case against an owner of 20 or so greyhounds. They were kept in an old byre ( cobbled floor, no windows, beds etc ) fed on cereals and ox heads - the good old days! All the dogs had Scabies ( see other thread) and we were on a winner. The Sherrif asked me if it was definitely scabies as that was the diagnosis on the charge. Affirmative. He then dismissed the charge as the owner couldn't know that it was scabies. Lots of argybargy but no go - if only I had used " severe skin condition". He then requested that I wouldn't hold his decision against him and his pets. Obviously I didn't and never mentioned it when I saw his wife and dogs at their next consult -- the next Xmas a very nice bottle of port arrived( not declared) The main thing is be yourself, be professional, make sure it's your opinion, try not to be intimidated and enjoy the experience.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 15:17:58 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Evelyn I'm trying to be helpful to Adrienne.[/quote]

Well, Wynne, you aren't.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] This country isn't like France , which has an inquisitorial legal system. [/quote]

Thank God.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]I hope that she wouldn't appear unless she was convinced the prosecution case was valid,[/quote]

Well, i would hope that she would be appearing because she had important evidence to give together with a truly professional opinion.

It's not her job to "get a conviction"

(That is, in fact, the job of the prosecuting lawyer, who will also use all the tricks they can to discredit defence witnesses).

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Evelyn seems to be a trifle confused between expert and professional witnesses.[/quote]

No I'm not.

I'll risk a small wager that Adrienne is required as a professional witness. As I explained in different words, a competent (they aren't always) prosecution team for most cases (perhaps not very straightforward ones) would engage an Expert if they needed an Expert Witness. As I also explained, sometimes they will try to use a professional witness as an Expert as well, mostly to save money. In that case the vet has to be very careful to make clear the limits of his/her expertise and simply decline to answer questions which go beyond it. This takes a little courage sometimes.

To be frank, I think that Mr. Mills' excellent post is misleading in parts. A vet requested to appear as a witness may well be asked to go through their evidence in advance with the prosecuting lawyer, but it is not their business to examine defence submissions and pick holes in them; unless they have also been engaged as an adviser or consultant for that purpose (which perhaps Mr. Mills generally is).

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] the defence lawyer, who is used to scared, not contemptuous witnesses.[/quote]

Perhaps. But I doubt if magistrates or judges or even juries are impressed by contemptuous witnesses.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]If you are an expert witness, you are there to impartially guide the court, soyou shouldn't favour one side over the other[/quote]

Absolutely. Perhaps you should remind yourself of that, Wynne, frequently, if you are engaged ever as an expert witness.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:40:18 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'mnot so guillable as to believe that - end of.

Wynne

[/quote]

*shrug* suit yourself!

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Linda Filshie — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:37:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'mnot so guillable as to believe that - end of.

Wynne

[/quote]

Ever get pissed off that vets are seen by some sectors of society as money grubbing opportunists? Well maybe some lawyers feel the same...

Just going to leave this here as food for thought

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:58:58 GMT

I'mnot so guillable as to believe that - end of.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:23:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Defence lawters are usually more concerned with building their own reputations than with strict justice, and often take great pride in getting off "hpeless cases" i.e. defendants who are actually guilty. to me, that is a gross miscarriage of justice.

Wynne

[/quote]

This simply isn't true.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:29:07 GMT

Adrienne. It's really important that however nervous you feel, you look confident, so in that way,you will be like an actress preparing for a role. If you look nervous, far from taking pity on you, a defence lawyer will have no qualms at all about giving you a hard time in the hope that you will break down, and then he/she can rubbish all your evidence. If you look supremely confident then they are far more likely to let you off with a minimal cross examination,as they'll be scared of you causing further damage to their client.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:00:18 GMT

Actually court is full of goodies (those whowant justice to be done) and baddies (those who've committed crimes, or are willing to try any trick to allow criminals to escape justice) Defence lawyers have a great deal in common with actors!

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Bob Russell — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:47:47 GMT

Some of the posts seem to suggest you need to be an actor preparing for a role! You are not!

The prosecution will often suggest you are an expert. You are a veterinary surgeon giving an opinion. Court is not full of goodies and baddies. Having been there several times (as have many vets) just remember you are there to give facts as you see them and to state your opinion as a professional.

Of course it is normal to be nervous, a worry if you are not. It is something new!

Your statement will be available to you on the day but do check through it beforehand. Every vet has been through far worse on their way to qualifying!

Remember the fear associated with the first anatomy oral exam? It will be nothing like as bad, I promise.

Dress sensibly, be confident and stay calm. You are not on trial and get to walk out of court a free person!

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:36:32 GMT

Anything which makes Adrienne feelmorally superior to the defence lawyer willmake him/her less intimidating, and he/she will have no scruples about using any intimidatory tactics the court allows.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:17:57 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]So...if you were accused of a crime and couldn't afford a lawyer, you'd rather go without a lawyer? When we make no distinction between the innocent and the guilty...well, here there be monsters.[/quote]

I have acted as witness of fact and expert witness in a number of RSPCA cases in Magistrates and higher courts (following appeal). I have acted mainly "for" the RSPCA but occasionally for the defence. Mark points out the dangers of assuming that Establishment Prosecution = Guilt. The cases that have had me acting for the defence have been characterised by an over-enthusiastic RSPCA officer, some "loud" witnesses and a worryingly thoughtless veterinary report. In one case, the veterinary surgeon had a rather torrid time in the witness box until she admitted that the wording of her statement had effectively been provided for her by a third party. Consequently, my only advice would be to make sure that your statement is indeed your statement.

Be prepared to be nervous - I do quite a bit of lecturing etc but court work is different. As vets, we are used to being the best-informed person in the room and similarly, we are used to our word being accepted without significant question. That isn't the case in court - just remember that it isn't personal. Avoid the temptation to "score points" or make jokes. In contrast to what has been implied earlier in this thread, your job is to give evidence and perhaps to inform the court on technical matters. It is not to decide guilt or to bias the decision of the court.

Sadly, my experience is that though these cases have suffering animals at their centre, the defendant is more often "mad" than bad and sometimes not obviously more capable of independent living than their erstwhile pet.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Julian Earl — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:57:11 GMT

A few comments in addition to David's and Hannah's.

An expert is classed as such purely based on experience not on letters after one's name. You may not have an extra qualification in spaying cats but it you have done thousands and do it daily, you are classed as an expert in cat spays and so on. . You are serving the court, not the defence or the prosecution, so always direct your answers to the magistrate not to the barrister asking. If you do not understandthe question, ask them to repeat it; if you make a mistake in an answer, apologise and answer again. By the way, be prepared that when you stand there as a witness you wil feel as it is you on trial you are not, but being sure of your facts should make you able to relax a little. Reply slowly and clearly, and yes the funeral suit is a good suggestion.

HTH.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:43:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Actually, the parasite comparison is highly appropriate, as the chances are a defence lawyer will be accepting legal aid work, so is a parasite on the taxpayer, and every time he/she gets an acquital for someone who has committed the crime, then the body of society as a whole is weakened.

Best of luck. I hope my observations have been helpful.

Wynne

[/quote]

So...if you were accused of a crime and couldn't afford a lawyer, you'd rather go without a lawyer? When we make no distinction between the innocent and the guilty...well, here there be monsters.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:03:04 GMT

A few further tips Adrienne.

Evelyn seems to be a trifle confused between expert and professional witnesses. He's given you advice on the assumption that you'll be waiting in the public waiting room,then has told you not tovolunteer information unless the prosecution solicitor/barrister asks for it. If you are waiting to give evidence with the public, you are a professional witness on the prosecution team, so it is entirely appropriate for you to volunteer information. If you are an expert witness, you are there to impartially guide the court, soyou shouldn't favour one side over the other - but in that case youwill be admitted to the court for the entire duration of the case, so won'tneed to sit with the public.

Anyone can attend any trial, sodrop in on the court where you'll be appearing, and familiarise yourself with the geography, in particular the location of the witness box, so you can stride directly to it when you are called. Walk in briskly and confidently. Defence lawyers are used to nervous, uncertain prosecution witnesses who need to be shown to the box by the usher. You will wrong-foot them if you stride in, obviously thoroughly at home, and with the air of a busy capable person who wants to get the job sorted ASAP.

As soon as you enter the box, smile at the magistrates, then an usher will approach you and you will have to promise to tell the truth. You will then be questioned by the prosecution lawyer (good guy) B e as helpful as possible, whilst sticking strictly to the truth.

The defence lawyer (bad guy) will then cross-examine you. Again, he'll try every trick he knows of to intimidate you,and if he scents blood, he'll become even more vicious. Pre-empt him(within the protocols of what is allowable in court) by looking at him as though he/she was a particularly obnoxious parasite. Imagine you're looking down a microscope in a parasitology prac, and you'll have the right expression. It will disconcert the defence lawyer, who is used to scared, not contemptuous witnesses. Actually, the parasite comparison is highly appropriate, as the chances are a defence lawyer will be accepting legal aid work, so is a parasite on the taxpayer, and every time he/she gets an acquital for someone who has committed the crime, then the body of society as a whole is weakened.

Best of luck. I hope my observations have been helpful.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:12:44 GMT

Adrienne. Just keep your cool. The first time, it willfeel a little like a viva- the crucialdifference is in a viva you're being questioned by people who know more than you do - in court you know more than them, so if you stick to what you can prove beyond reasonable doubt, it's impossible for them tocatch you out.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:33:59 GMT

Evelyn I'm trying to be helpful to Adrienne. This country isn't like France , which has an inquisitorial legal system. There, an examining magistrate asks questions of both prosecution and defence witnesses. Here, we have an adversorial system. The 2 sides fight it out in Court, in front of impartial third parties - jury or magistrates. The defence team willnot be noble intheir tactics. They will try every means they can get away with to discredit Adrienne. If they go too far, the prosecution lawyer will object, and the objection will be upheld, but the damage may well be done, and Adrienne willbe so rattled that she forgets an important bit of evidence. Although she will not be allowed to introduce evidence which hasn't previously been disclosed to the defence, that pre-trial written evidence won't be available to the magistrates/jury. I hope that she wouldn't appear unless she was convinced the prosecution case was valid, and, if truly convincing herself that anyone who can earn a living frm defending such people must themselves be a lower life form than the organisms one sometimes finds on the bottom of one's shoes, then that may prevent her being rattled in the 1st place.

I quite enjoy it when a shaken looking defence lawer says rather abruptly "Nomore questions" just after his/her previous one has dug a deper hole for the accused.

Wynne

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:14:27 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

the most useful advice I can give: take a good book and a cushion with you. You'll probably spend an awful lot of time waiting, and you may even wait all day only to be told "sorry, we don't want you today" (accused didn't turn up, previous case rambled on and on.........). Moreover, in a magistrates' court, you'll probably have to wait in one room with your accused, his mates, other witnesses, other petty crooks, hooligans and oiks and general unpleasant persons and weirdos. So it helps to be able to bury your nose in a book.

Oh yes. One other thing. Don't forget to charge a full daily rate.

[/quote]

+1!!!

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:48:36 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Yes but lawyers will take defence cases, and try every trick in the book to get an aquital, even though the evidence shows the prosecution case is overwhelming. Prostituting their brains, which is actually (to my mind) more immoral than prostituting their bodies.

Court cases are an exercise in one-upmanship, so anything which gives you a psychologicaladvantage useful.

[/quote]

Wynne, I'm beginning to understand why people occasionally start their posts with "FFS".

We are not in China. Anybody accused of anything is entitled to a defence – is entitled to make the best defence he or she can. Even if they haven't a leg to stand on, they are entitled to show as much mitigation as they can. A defence lawyer is ethically obliged to do his best for his client, even if it involves clutching at straws. God forbid we ever reach the state in this country where an accused just cannot get a defence lawyer.

Judges and magistrates may "take a dim view" of cruelty to animals but they are not allowed to be prejudiced (something the more rabid popular press does not always understand). You as witness are not there to try every trick to get a conviction, you are there to tell the unembroidered truth and that is all. You are right that the defence lawyer may (quite rightly) try to discredit you or try to get you to contradict yourself, but I hope the OP disregards your suggestion of using clever-dick quips and smart-a**e talking-back. That sort of behaviour might get you a reputation but it's not one which reflects well on your profession.

Anyway, for Adrienne:

David Mills has outlined beautifully the important stuff. I'd only add that you must avoid being taken for an expert witness on something when you are not. Sometimes the prosecution don't understand that, or see you as "good enough for this case". Make the limitations of your expertise clear and if necessary (it should not be if the prosecution has prepared properly, but you never know) say in open court "I'm sorry, I'm not qualified to give an expert opinion on that".

The RSPCA may well try to get you on their side, as it were (I'm sorry David, it may not be universal but it's true in my experience). You should resist this, not gleefully enter into this cosy conspiracy. Stick to facts and to the technical veterinary interpretation of them. Don't volunteer anything: if the prosecution lawyer omits to ask you something, that's their problem not yours. If the defence lawyer asks you a daft question, don't give a silly answer, nor try to guess what he's getting at: just say "I'm sorry, I don't understand the question" to the magistrate or judge.

Finally, the most useful advice I can give: take a good book and a cushion with you. You'll probably spend an awful lot of time waiting, and you may even wait all day only to be told "sorry, we don't want you today" (accused didn't turn up, previous case rambled on and on.........). Moreover, in a magistrates' court, you'll probably have to wait in one room with your accused, his mates, other witnesses, other petty crooks, hooligans and oiks and general unpleasant persons and weirdos. So it helps to be able to bury your nose in a book.

Oh yes. One other thing. Don't forget to charge a full daily rate.

Re: Anyone been to court as a witness in a cruelty case ?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:26:10 GMT

Court cases are an exercise in one-upmanship, so anything which gives you a psychologicaladvantage useful.

Wynne