Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 10:51:13 GMT

[quote user="Tony Knapp"]I'm going to up the ante on pedantry, "Who" is perfectly valid to use in animals, although generally limited to those animals with names.[/quote]Sorry the pronoun 'who' relates solely to people as do whom and whose. At the last count animals were not yet human, they are it, that or which. The use of who when related to organisations when being referred to as an institution rather than a group of individuals is also incorrect.

This really should be in the Pet Hates thread.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Tony Knapp — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 05:38:36 GMT

I'm going to up the ante on pedantry, "Who" is perfectly valid to use in animals, although generally limited to those animals with names.

"That" works in all cases, including people, although it sounds a bit bizarre when referring to a specific (named) human rather than a group, may be why its taken on with animals...

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:25:18 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]In my olden days in Holland, when birth control was more a question of tablets for cats and injections for bitches instead of massive neutering, it was common practice to euthanase the majority of kittens/pups in an unwanted litter but leave the mother with 1 or 2, especially since they always seemed to enjoy their offspring so much. [/quote]

The answer I was hoping I'd get from someone! If you took the bitch for a walk ,euthanised all the pups or kittens bar one or two [if the owner wanted another, or had a guaranteed home], removed the others, well away; the bitch didn't seem distressed at all and one or two seemed to satisfy her.

I refused to put them all down.

sorry, gave myself 5 stars instead of Mariette.....now given myself two, can't get rid of them and don't want a red again.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:58:57 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]A thread drift, but what is the current feeling when you are called to an unwanted litter of, say, 12, mongrel pups with regard to euthanasia?[/quote]

Don't enjoy it, but do it.

(pregnant spay doesn't get a second thought from me)

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

mariette asselbergs — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:41:46 GMT

In my olden days in Holland, when birth control was more a question of tablets for cats and injections for bitches instead of massive neutering, it was common practice to euthanase the majority of kittens/pups in an unwanted litter but leave the mother with 1 or 2, especially since they always seemed to enjoy their offspring so much. That doesn't seem to be acceptable here nowadays, it looks to me that the choice is always put as either killing all or desperately and idealistically trying to preserve all.

Mariette

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:57:38 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I've got a good contact with a rehoming centre, so I try my best to persuade the owners to hang on to the puppies until thet're weaned, then pass them on to the rescue centre.

Wynne

[/quote]

I thought there was a massive over supply of "unwanted" dogs? [except at Xmas, of course]

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:32:35 GMT

I've got a good contact with a rehoming centre, so I try my best to persuade the owners to hang on to the puppies until thet're weaned, then pass them on to the rescue centre.

Wynne

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:49:51 GMT

[quote user="shanley barber"]My issue is more to do with having to eurthanise the puppies[/quote]

A thread drift, but what is the current feeling when you are called to an unwanted litter of, say, 12, mongrel pups with regard to euthanasia?

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

shanley barber — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 20:52:34 GMT

My issue is more to do with having to eurthanise the puppies, and the flack I'll get from the nurses, as suggested previously. I'm not terribly worried about the op, I assume it's similar to a c section or pyo. It's just frustrating to be doing it, when it is the result of yet another numpty owner!

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Bob Russell — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:29:43 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I would spay the dog. I don't like doing pregnant spays, but hate euthing unwanted pups even more.

Generally i will balk at a third trimester spay unless there is a good reason but that is because of big pulsating vessels. another issue is that spaying pregnant animals especially if heavily pregnant, has a deleterious effect on vet nurses who, generally, are far more idealistic than most vets.

[/quote]

I suspect most VN's are more realistic than you are giving them credit for! It has been a much tougher world for rehoming unwanted pets for some time! Euthanasing the lost cat that occupies a kennel for a week is a different matter!

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:14:08 GMT

I would spay the dog. I don't like doing pregnant spays, but hate euthing unwanted pups even more.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 13:38:53 GMT

No problem. Don't see why you'd prefer Alizin over spaying. I've put down too many unwanted dogs at the local rescue centre so don't want to bring more puppies in to the world if they are not wanted.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 12:17:01 GMT

[quote user="shanley barber"]We had a client ask if we would spay their Labrador bitch who was 4 to 5 weeks pregnant. I have a real problem with this; what do other people think?[/quote]Actually as I'm in a pedantic mood, as said I don't have a problem with the spaying, but I do have a problem with the current trend to use the word 'who' when related to non-humans. It is an animal so it should be 'that was 4-5 weeks pregnant'.

Clearly I have too much time on my hands.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:17:57 GMT

Wynne

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:23:51 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]But it probably would have happened anyway! [/quote]

Sorry, I think mine only occurred during a pseudopreg.

I just thought it may happen during post-partum lactation so didn't want to advise taking the risk.

When we spayed the odd one during pseudopreg the lactation persisted, that's what happened every time with us. With the last one Galastop worked, i remember.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Bob Russell — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:10:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Never been impressed with the persistent 'false pregnancy' argument.[/quote]

Boy, it sure happened, went on for weeks, nothing stopped it and the owners were sooooo unimpressed!

[/quote]

But it probably would have happened anyway! I am totally unconvinced that spaying during lactation produces a persistent lactation, just does not necessarily stop it happening.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 09:29:39 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Never been impressed with the persistent 'false pregnancy' argument.[/quote]

Boy, it sure happened, went on for weeks, nothing stopped it and the owners were sooooo unimpressed!

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Bob Russell — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 09:07:26 GMT

No problem with this generally but less happy the later on in pregnancy. Better spayed bitch than even more puppies.

Never been impressed with the persistent 'false pregnancy' argument. Mainly kept going because there were lousy drugs available to treat it. Galastop if really needed!

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:50:36 GMT

Shanley, I would like to know why you're having a problem with this.

If someone does because they're depriving some unwanted puppies of life I presume they also have an issue with women having control of their own bodies and are anti-abortionist. The alternative is bringing unwanted puppies (babies) into the world which is morally far worse.

If its a technical issue don't worry, technically its easier than spaying an immature bitch as the ligaments are nicely stretched and If they're lactating give them Galastop.

I'm happy to spay up the point I'm having to shove the puppies back in.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:42:18 GMT

Thanks Michael, that rings a bell with me. [boy, they used to lactate for months and there weren't the drugs to give them there are now......]

My memory suggests that it only happened when they were lactating, ie either around birth or during a pseudopregnancy??

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:16:11 GMT

I'm dredging here, but I thought the mechanism was due to bitches having no mechanism of recognising pregnancy. The fall in progesterone stimulates a rise in prolactin and leads to lactation. Removing the ovaries in the 2 months after the season causes a sudden drop in P4, rise in prolactin and could then go on to cause a pseudopregnancy. That was my understanding.

Will look it up tomorrow.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:56:42 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]with a warning re pseudopregnancy[/quote]

I always thought, and have seen, persistent pseudo pregnancy and lactation only occurred if the bitch was lactating when spayed, or during a FP. ie when lactating and there is a hormonal reason for it ,which I've forgotten, so we made sure the FP [pseudopregnancy] had truly ended before spaying where possible.

Shouldn't happen if they are spayed early in pregnancy and if there is no FP, but I'll stand corrected 'cos I may have got the timing wrong.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Niall Taylor — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:26:24 GMT

[quote user="shanley barber"] I have a real problem with this; what do other people think? I would be happier to use Alizin, then spay once the bitch has had another season...[/quote]

Can you clarify why you have a problem with this? Is this a mesalliance?

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Braden Collins — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:22:00 GMT

I don't like it but will do it. After all, we're euthanising excess dogs on a regular basis so stopping some being born just helps reduce euthanasing puppies or dogs down the track.

Re: Pregnant bitch spay - does anyone do this?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:10:13 GMT

I'd be happy to go ahead and spay.