Is this a legal passport?

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Emily Rainbow — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 13:04:09 GMT

A colleague had one this weekend. A 7wk pup brought over in owners camper. No passport/chip etc. VDS advisors him that it was up to him if he reported it or not!!!!!! But he'd be the first to be shot down if it did turn out to have rabies! They did advise him to call rcvs due to client confidentiality but where will the buck stop if he doesn't? We need some clear guidance/procedures to follow as everyone is being given different advice and it'll be us who get struck off/lynched if we don't report it.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

KathW — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 20:48:01 GMT

Got a similar conundrum yesterday. Interested to know if people have contacted the RCVS for advice re client confidentiality before approaching Trading Standards or is a possible illegal import a case where we have to approach Trading standards anyway (I was planning on discussing with the owners first).

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Bob Russell — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:46:21 GMT

Not sure when we are getting the new 'high security' passports. Are they to be issued centrally? If so we are all in trouble!

Until such time as staff (ferry or Border) start to take this seriously it is all window dressing anyway!

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:34:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]It sounds like they are pre-empting the new rules that come in on 29 December 2014,[/quote]There's no pre-empting, the rules have always been the same they are just now being made less ambiguous.

[/quote]

The previous rules were reliant on the license of the individual rabies vaccine:

"Your pet must be vaccinated against rabies in accordance with the recommendation on the vaccine manufacturer’s data sheet. This can be done any time after it has been implanted with a microchip. Before vaccinating your pet, make sure your vet reads its microchip number and enters it on your pet’s vaccination record."

Which generally meant that the puppy had to be over 12 weeks, but I'm sure on a previous thread someone found a European licensed rabies vaccine with an earlier finish that 12 weeks.

I think the new rules are a definite improvement and it would have been better if they'd clarified this a long time ago.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 09:45:39 GMT

As Catherine has said above, and I have already said, the knowledge of local Trading Standards varies. If you get hold of someone who knows what they're doing the answer is the same: no vaccines before 12 weeks, no valid passport for 3 weeks after that. Whilst I don't feel its our job to police this It is the responsibility of the vet reporting the incident to tell them the correct rules and advise them that they need to act accordingly.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

CatherineThomas — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 08:28:17 GMT

I had a case over a year ago now where I saw a french bulldog puppy which had come from an Eastern European country. Looking at the passport it all looked right but the puppy to me looked far to small for the age they stated. I looked back through our records of other french bulldogs whose wights were double the weight of this particular puppy at an earlier age.

It also seemed to be bought in quite dodgy circumstances, handed over at the door without being allowed in the house and at a price which was 1/4 of the price this breed usually go for.

I phoned trading standards who at first didn't seem sure what to do so I left it with them. A couple of days later I got a phone call from some who was obviously in the right department and she was annoyed that the people I had spoken to originally hadn't passed it on to her straight away. She took it very seriously and took the puppy into quarantine.

I saw the puppy again when it came out of quarantine, the owners said they had to pay for I think 3 months of quarantine and at the end of their investigation they concluded that they could not confirm there was any wrong doing.

So, I think if you get through to the right person at trading standards they do take it seriously.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

James Laidlaw — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 13:33:11 GMT

Thanks Thomas. I think you may be right.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:58:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Either something has changed THIS YEAR, or someone's wrong, because I have been given the exact opposite information. As far as I was told by defra, AHVLA, pets etc. The puppy has to be vaccinated "according to the data sheet" which DOES allow for some individual dogs to be vaccinated earlier than 12 weeks/3 months,[/quote]The person I spoke to at DEFRA was quite adamant that even though individual nations may accept rabies vaccination earlier than 12 weeks and the vaccine data sheets show the vaccine can be given earlier, for purposes of entry into the UK: THE VACCINE CANNOT BE GIVEN BEFORE 12 WEEKS AND THE PET MAY NOT ENTER THE UK IN LESS THAN 3 WEEKS FOLLOWING THAT DATE.

[/quote]

It sounds like they are pre-empting the new rules that come in on 29 December 2014, see number 3:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/365046/pet-travel-scheme-dec-2014-guidance.pdf

Re: Is this a legal passport?

James Laidlaw — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:52:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

The problem with most local Trading Standards officers (if that's the right word) is that they are used to dealing with dodgy kebab shops not pet imports and their knowledge may be somewhat lacking on the matter. My local Trading Standards office for London Borough of Hillingdon have directed requests to the City of London who are based at Heathrow and deal with dodgy imports 24/7 365 having deferred to their greater experience/knowledge. The staff at the Animal Reception Centre are de-facto AHVLA/ DEFRA officers which tends to make me respect their opinion rather more than a kebab shop licensor!

[/quote] I'm not arguing with you Martin, just advising that we have the opposite advice from the same departments.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Sammy82 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 11:06:21 GMT

Yes it was last year I spoke to them (lady at the Carlisle PETS helpline), maybe things have changed since.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 11:04:39 GMT

Re: Is this a legal passport?

James Laidlaw — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 10:00:40 GMT

Either something has changed THIS YEAR, or someone's wrong, because I have been given the exact opposite information. As far as I was told by defra, AHVLA, pets etc. The puppy has to be vaccinated "according to the data sheet" which DOES allow for some individual dogs to be vaccinated earlier than 12 weeks/3 months, but I had heard that was changing when the new passports are issued toward the end of December. Neither of the 2 Irish dogs I have seen (one just last week) with sub 12 week vaccination ages were thought to have been done incorrectly by ANYONE I spoke to at any organizational level from pets to trading standards in Kent. Nice that they make that clear to all across the uk, innit?! Begs the question to know why the approach here would be different from your area trading standards? They should at least have a standardized response.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Sammy82 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 09:41:33 GMT

When I spoke to Defra (Carlisle) they were very clear on it that they do not allow import of under 3 mths old dogs. The passport scheme apparently only applies for 3 months and older, under that age it is up to each country to decide if they let them in. The Netherlands allow them in (from the Uk anyway, requested MC and passport but no rabies vacc), the UK don't.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Bob Russell — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 11:04:44 GMT

I would tend to agree the passport is legal but not valid for entry to the UK if vaccinated before 3 months and the waiting period has elapsed.

I understand the new passports will have a box indicating the earliest date travel is allowed so many problems should stop from next year.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 10:27:35 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

Our local trading standards dropped a case very similar to this (in that they did not enforce a quarantine period) because it appeared that the puppy had been vaccinated within the datasheet, and was imported before it was 3 months of age. So it seems to be a legal passport for import purposes, or at least, there's enough uncertainty that TS won't act.

[/quote]We've been here before with a previous thread but DEFRA are quite clear on this: if the vaccine is given before 3 months it is not valid for entry into the UK and therefore the youngest any pup can be for legal import is 15 weeks. Our local Trading Standards 'police' are very proactive on this and understand this regulation as they are based at the Animal Reception Centre at Heathrow - dodgy imports do not get any dodgier than there. If there is any doubt they will act

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Edward Jones — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 23:35:55 GMT

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 19:14:31 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]This summer I cycled all the way round Ireland. I took the ferry to Rosslare, little ferry across the top in to NI, and finally ferry all the way from Belfast to Birkenhead. No ID checks anywhere. [/quote] Ah...but you didn't have a dog with you (did you)?

I actually did the same cycling trip, stopping in Youth Hostels in 1968 (minus dog)! It was before The Troubles and Ireland was still almost an agrarian society outside the large towns then. I did however get stopped by customs coming back into the UK because I had a shillelagh I'd bought as a gift in my saddlebag!!

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 19:01:47 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]

How did the puppy get here? If it went from Southern- into Northern Ireland (no border control what-so-ever) and then from Larne or Belfast across the Irish sea nobody checks the passport either. (Moved from NI to Scotland with 2 cats, the ferry security weren't interested at all although they looked in the boot for bombs).

[/quote]

I can vouch for this! This summer I cycled all the way round Ireland. I took the ferry to Rosslare, little ferry across the top in to NI, and finally ferry all the way from Belfast to Birkenhead. No ID checks anywhere.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

James Laidlaw — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 18:19:39 GMT

Had another today...

No valid until date entered for rabies, no time entered for wormer, and well under 12 weeks for rabies vaccine date.

Trading standards quite helpful once through to right department though.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:49:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Which is rather apt given the IQ of the average citizen of Northern Ireland is higher than the rest of the UK and presumably also Eire.[/quote]

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:48:25 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Is that any different for people who go from the UK to Republic of Ireland via Northern Ireland?[/quote]No which is why the whole business is absurd. Never has a situation more graphically illustrated my oft repeated quote: 'Laws are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men'. Which is rather apt given the IQ of the average citizen of Northern Ireland is higher than the rest of the UK and presumably also Eire.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Sammy82 — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:59:49 GMT

No of course not. And I think there are probably quite a few people taking their dog on a all Ireland holiday or hunting trip without even havng a passport.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:54:39 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]A passport (like in this case) that is still missing the 2nd vacc at 12 weeks to complete the primary vaccination course, or a passport where the booster vacc has been missed is still legal[/quote]

As long as someone has put the revaccination date as when the pup is 12 weeks old, not 3 years after the early vaccination.

[quote user="Sammy82"]How did the puppy get here? If it went from Southern- into Northern Ireland (no border control what-so-ever) and then from Larne or Belfast across the Irish sea nobody checks the passport either.[/quote]

Is that any different for people who go from the UK to Republic of Ireland via Northern Ireland?

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Sammy82 — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 21:49:36 GMT

I think the question of the passport being legal (vs. fraudulent) and the passport being sufficient for crossing the border are two different issues. The passport is legal if everything recorded has been done at the date recorded, the dog was microchipped, the DOB is correct etc. A passport (like in this case) that is still missing the 2nd vacc at 12 weeks to complete the primary vaccination course, or a passport where the booster vacc has been missed is still legal, but not valid for export/import.

Re: Is this a legal passport?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:35:55 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Ask DEFRA or whatever they're now calling themselves!

[/quote]

DEFRA is still called DEFRA. AHPA, previously AHVLA and before that Animal Health, is an executive agency of DEFRA.