Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 23:35:03 GMT

[quote user="Stewart halperin"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Stewart,

A point about VAT has just occurred to me.

If I can invent some figures, just to keep it simple:

Suppose the total of charges was £1000.

Then I would have to collect £200 in VAT, so the client would need to find £1200, so the client would probably ask for a loan of £1200.

Loan granted, you would deduct 7% (is that correct?) and send me 93%. So you would deduct £84 and send me £1116.

Now, being on cash VAT accounting, would I record that as a receipt of £1200 and also record that you had charged me £84, a business expense ( and I don't think your activity is subject to VAT, so you would keep the lot), and be obliged to hand over £200 in VAT, or would I record it as a receipt of £1116 and only be obliged to hand over £186 in VAT? If the former, I'd be paying you £14 just to help me collect VAT.

Of course if I were on invoice accounting for VAT, I really would be paying you £14 just to collect VAT. But I imagine that everyone here is on cash accounting.

Just asking.

[/quote]

Dear Evelyn,

We will revert to you on this particular VAT question

[/quote]

Or, to make a simpler point, I'd be paying £84 in order to collect my own £1000: that's 8.4%

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Stewart Halperin — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:11:07 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Stewart,

A point about VAT has just occurred to me.

If I can invent some figures, just to keep it simple:

Suppose the total of charges was £1000.

Then I would have to collect £200 in VAT, so the client would need to find £1200, so the client would probably ask for a loan of £1200.

Loan granted, you would deduct 7% (is that correct?) and send me 93%. So you would deduct £84 and send me £1116.

Of course if I were on invoice accounting for VAT, I really would be paying you £14 just to collect VAT. But I imagine that everyone here is on cash accounting.

Just asking.

[/quote]

Dear Evelyn,

We will revert to you on this particular VAT question

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 07 Nov 2014 16:48:27 GMT

Stewart,

A point about VAT has just occurred to me.

If I can invent some figures, just to keep it simple:

Suppose the total of charges was £1000.

Then I would have to collect £200 in VAT, so the client would need to find £1200, so the client would probably ask for a loan of £1200.

Loan granted, you would deduct 7% (is that correct?) and send me 93%. So you would deduct £84 and send me £1116.

Of course if I were on invoice accounting for VAT, I really would be paying you £14 just to collect VAT. But I imagine that everyone here is on cash accounting.

Just asking.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Andrew Henfrey — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:44:50 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]

how long did it take to get your license. I have been waiting nearly 8 weeks for a form that is filled out correctly as they did it?

[/quote]

Submitted on 9th September, reply on 11th, authorised 26 September, so 18 days. I do already have a different authorisation through Petplan so don't know if that helped.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:02:53 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I do wonder, though, whether this is discussing a problem that isn't really a problem in the first place.[/quote]

Well, you know me.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 09:49:20 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]How do you handle the situation where you DO NOT want to offer the facility to a client which has heard that you have offered it to others.[/quote]

Well this is what I was asking, and I think it is what Kate was asking all along.[/quote]

Not quite. Seemed to me as if Kate was asking whether one is, for any reason, obliged to offer this facility to all clients, to which the answer is no.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]"I'm so sorry Mrs Freeloader, I'm afraid you don't meet the criteria for a loan." (ie without saying whose criteria!)[/quote]

S'pose Mrs. F. asks "Whose criteria? What criteria?" I know, I'm probably getting silly now, but have you never been enraged by some "customer services" person parroting "It's not company policy – it's not company policy – it's not company policy" when you are asking some perfectly reasonable question why you can't do this or they can't do that, and it's obvious that either the customer services person doesn't know why but has been taught to say that (a junior sort of person) or she knows perfectly well but has been ordered not to tell you (a supervisory or managerial sort of person). [/quote]

I do know what you mean, and yes, have to admit, it can be infuriating when some jobsworth tells you you can't have something because the script in front of them says so.

But I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of man to develop a suitable response for those you don't want to offer the service to.

Obviously harder for me to do it, because I am not in practice and my ideas are probably flawed for that reason, but how about you set your parameters so that you only offer to people who have been clients for more than a certain period of time, or who have had an appointment within a certain period? Would that weed out the sort that you wouldn't want to offer this facility to? If it would, you can say to those fly-by-nights who turn up at the practice door ONLY because they have heard you offer this: "I am so sorry, this service costs us money to administer, so we only offer it to established clients." Perfectly reasonable.

I do wonder, though, whether this is discussing a problem that isn't really a problem in the first place. I mean, sure, if it were me, I would be prepared with a response for those people I did not want to offer it to. But I suspect that either a) I'd just make it available to anyone but adjust my pricing to cover the cost, after allowing for the benefit of improved cashflow and less bad debt, or b) I'd offer it strategically and quietly to those people who really need it and who wouldn't likely shout about it to the rest of the world. If the latter, then I'd just wait and see whether refusing people started to become a problem. I'd be surprised if it did, though.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

patrick murphy — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:55:09 GMT

how long did it take to get your license. I have been waiting nearly 8 weeks for a form that is filled out correctly as they did it?

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:40:01 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]How do you handle the situation where you DO NOT want to offer the facility to a client which has heard that you have offered it to others.[/quote]

Well this is what I was asking, and I think it is what Kate was asking all along.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] in which case I'd struggle to think of the circumstances under which you wouldn't offer it.[/quote]

That's easy. In the circumstances where you were getting anxious about the number of seven per cents vanishing from your fairly precarious income.

Of course, if you were that way inclined, you could work out in advance an estimate of the number of client pounds likely to be funded thus and so reduced to 93 pence, and raise all your prices accordingly. Just as an example, suppose you reckoned it would be 50% of client pounds (less than 50% of client transactions, because smaller bills would not be funded this way); then if you raised all your prices by 3.764% you would break even. But probably you would not be raising your charges for drugs, because you calculate those with a mark up on the cost, so you would raise all your prices by just a little more than 3.764%. No hassle

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]"I'm so sorry Mrs Freeloader, I'm afraid you don't meet the criteria for a loan." (ie without saying whose criteria!)[/quote]

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:16:32 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Stewart halperin"]In clinic, you can choose who you offer the facility to by setting your own parameters - You can say for example you are any offering the facility to clients who have bills over a certain amount.[/quote]

So, you can't decline to offer the facility to anyone, if their bill is over that amount?[/quote]

Yes you can!

I clarified the point with Stewart for my own interest. As he says, you set your own parameters. Point is they are your parameters, and you can make them as tight or as loose as you want, change them as you want, and stick to them as closely (or not) as you want. In effect, you can offer this facility (or not offer it) to whoever you want.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Then suppose you do offer it to someone for whom it would be very appropriate even though the bill is not within the parameters you set, and the word gets round that in fact these "parameters" are meaningless and you offer it to anyone?[/quote]

A slightly different point, and a good one. How do you handle the situation where you DO NOT want to offer the facility to a client which has heard that you have offered it to others.

I would imagine this would be quite an isolated kind of situation. I mean, either you decide you're going to offer the facility widely, in which case I'd struggle to think of the circumstances under which you wouldn't offer it. Alternatively, you might offer it on a one-to-one basis with clients who meet certain criteria. In the situation that someone else finds out, I would think a careful choice of words would do the job: "I'm so sorry Mrs Freeloader, I'm afraid you don't meet the criteria for a loan." (ie without saying whose criteria!)

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:40:17 GMT

So, you can't decline to offer the facility to anyone, if their bill is over that amount ?

Then suppose you do offer it to someone for whom it would be very appropriate even though the bill is not within the parameters you set, and the word gets round that in fact these "parameters" are meaningless and you offer it to anyone?

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:33:34 GMT

[quote user="Stewart halperin"]

Hi Gareth,

In this case you would just call us and we wiil adjust the loan amount our end. There is also a preauthorisation option where you have an amount preauthorised , and then go back and adjust it online to the correct figure at the end of treatment.

Regarding your FCA question on cost of annual license, the FCA have indicated that this will be in the region of £200 a year but they have not published this information yet so we cannot give you a definitive answer, apologies if that was not made clear to you. [quote user="Gareth C."]

What happens when the final cost overuns the loan, eg say a second unforseen procedure is needed or the dog chews its sutures out and needs re ga and stitch up? Or just long ongoing medical cases?

[/quote]

I did ask your office similar questions when making initial enquiries about signing up, but nobody has replied.

So, about the FCA, it's definitely £100 to register initially, and then it might be £200 annually or it might be something else?

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Stewart Halperin — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:28:45 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Thankyou Stewart for your reply. However you didn't answer my question specifically

If you take on this facility, by default, is it then on offer/available to all clients regardless of their ability to pay the full amount or can you pick and choose who you offer it to?

and Can you refuse access to this facility if you as a practice offer it to some clients or this illegal?[/quote]

Hi Kate,

In clinic, you can choose who you offer the facility to by setting your own parameters - You can say for example you are any offering the facility to clients who have bills over a certain amount. For more guidance on this please do speak to Debbie in our office who will have more information for you

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Kate Richardson — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:41:21 GMT

Thankyou Stewart for your reply. However you didn't answer my question specifically

If you take on this facility, by default, is it then on offer/available to all clients regardless of their ability to pay the full amount or can you pick and choose who you offer it to?

and Can you refuse access to this facility if you as a practice offer it to some clients or this illegal?

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Stewart Halperin — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:38:57 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]What happens when the final cost overuns the loan, eg say a second unforseen procedure is needed or the dog chews its sutures out and needs re ga and stitch up? Or just long ongoing medical cases? [/quote]

Hi Gareth,

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Stewart Halperin — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:33:57 GMT

[quote user="Aisling McGrath"]If one did sign up to this and offer this scheme, could one charge the client a "finance fee"?

For example, if the expected client bill was £500, could one charge the client £35 "finance fee"? Or is this not allowed because of some sort of financial regulations?

Just thinking that we charge a small fee for direct claims to insurers...[/quote]

When offering 0% finance you cannot legally charge an admin fee, but you can do so for anything other than 0%, in other words for any interest bearing loan you can charge an admin fee, these are FCA rules. We do have a range of interest rates you can offer to clients, for example we have one equine hospital who wanted the option to offer 4.9% finance and not 0% finance and in that case they can and do charge an admin fee for that. We can offer bespoke rates to practices, please do call the office and we can talk you through this and any other questions you may have.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Stewart Halperin — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 12:26:53 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

I have a question-

If you take on this facility, is it then on offer/available to all clients regardless of their ability to pay the full amount or can you pick and choose who you offer it to? For example, what happens if you offer this facility to particular clients, then word gets around (which it will) that interest free credit is available at practice x, then you get a client who you are fairly certain can pay the bill themselves, but has heard of this facility and would like to take advantage of it? Can you refuse or this illegal? If you can't I can foresee a scenario where in time you could have many clients taking advantage of the facility and you lose 7% of a lot of total bills where as without this facility some of these clients would pay in full at the time. 7% of the occasional bill may not a big issue and there are definitely clients for whom I think this is a great thing, and particularly the availability 24/7, but 7% of a lot of bills equals huge amounts of lost profit in a profession where profit margins are tight anyway. [/quote]

Dear Kate,

That is a very good question -Some practices offer the facility to all clients, others to those they know need help or who request a payment plan.Overall, our feedback daily from practices and pet owners tells us that clients do want this kind of facility and are using it. When we train practices, we discuss the fact that the fee to the practice does offset against bad debt, chasing debtors (staff time and aggravation) and the ability to not have to discount or cap bills, which all of us do, because we want to do good work and have a responsibility to do that. It also helps hugely with cashflow. Owners already ask for payment plans and options, this system just gives a structure to that and takes all the burden away from the practice and help cashflow, and it really is well worth the cost

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Kate Richardson — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 09:24:57 GMT

I have a question-

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Richard Carter — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 09:21:04 GMT

Yes but your 'interest free' purchase at DFS or similar has 'insurance fee', an 'acceptance fee', a 'credit check fee' or anything else they can dream up.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Colin Thomson — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:36:37 GMT

I think its a legal thing. If you say some finance is 0% then there can't be any other charges - 0% has to be you just repay the capital alone over time. Well its regulatory perhaps more than legal but I believe them's the rules.

Colin

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Aisling McGrath — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:42:28 GMT

If one did sign up to this and offer this scheme, could one charge the client a "finance fee"?
For example, if the expected client bill was £500, could one charge the client £35 "finance fee"? Or is this not allowed because of some sort of financial regulations?

Just thinking that we charge a small fee for direct claims to insurers...

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Bob Russell — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:28:42 GMT

Or, 'let me check my addition again! Ooops, I underquoted, it is 7% more than I told you'. I will let you off the extra 7%!

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:19:31 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Suppose the bloke (it will be a bloke) who fancies himself as "canny" says "Hey doc, if I took this loan thing you'd get 7% less money, how about I pay you cash and you knock 7% off?"[/quote]

To which the answer is, surely, eff orff.

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Richard Carter — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:07:20 GMT

I would take a 7% cut in fees if there is a chance that once they are out the door with poochie, I'll never see them again (or worse, poochie is in the freezer with a private crem bill to come)

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Gareth C. — Sun, 02 Nov 2014 00:07:31 GMT

What happens when the final cost overuns the loan, eg say a second unforseen procedure is needed or the dog chews its sutures out and needs re ga and stitch up? Or just long ongoing medical cases?

Re: Loan facility for veterinary treatment costs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 01 Nov 2014 22:59:32 GMT

Suppose the bloke (it will be a bloke) who fancies himself as "canny" says "Hey doc, if I took this loan thing you'd get 7% less money, how about I pay you cash and you knock 7% off?"